RED workflow (how we prepared the Red Footage for IBC)

[Shaw]

Hi Lucas. I didn't mean for my comments to come across as offensive! My apologies if that was the case. I've never played with a scratch system before so I really don't know. It was merely my impression of the system. What I like about the Nucoda system (and I don't know for sure if scratch can handle the same?) is it's ability to work with blending modes etc. It's always struck me as being more similar to Photoshop in the way it operates. This is, of course, very powerful stuff that I was _under the impression_ that no other DI tool provided. Granted I haven't kept up with Scratch lately!

Now what I DO find to be ridiculous is Nucoda's use of 8 processors in it's station.... why not just use the bloody GPU (or two...)?

Anyway, the feature set always seemed to be a bit more flexible to me despite its problems. I may be wrong.

This is, in fact, one issue I take with all current grading solutions. They're just not as flexible as I would like. You're given a set of very powerful tools but that's it. At that point your limited to how you can approach the image by the way the software was designed. What if I want to do some complex channel blending and overlay modes? I've always thought a colorist should, at some level, be given complete control over the small mathematical processes much like compositors are in Shake. This need not be the primary interface (it would be slow) but access to all the little things and being able to combine them in creative ways is sooo flexible. Build your own tools using nodes and then assign them to your control panel etc.

Maybe I'm just delusional but I've never been truly impressed by the creative flexibility provided by current DI solutions. They're flexible in so many ways but yet they insist you approach the image from a single point of view with tools designed to work with one methodology alone. Too bad really as there is so much potential for pure power!

 

[luki]

Hi Lucas. I didn't mean for my comments to come across as offensive! My apologies if that was the case. I've never played with a scratch system before so I really don't know. ...

Now what I DO find to be ridiculous is Nucoda's use of 8 processors in it's station.... why not just use the bloody GPU (or two...)?

Anyway, the feature set always seemed to be a bit more flexible to me despite its problems. I may be wrong.

This is, in fact, one issue I take with all current grading solutions. They're just not as flexible as I would like. You're given a set of very powerful tools but that's it. ... I've always thought a colorist should, at some level, be given complete control over the small mathematical processes much like compositors are in Shake. ...Build your own tools using nodes and then assign them to your control panel etc.

Maybe I'm just delusional but I've never been truly impressed by the creative flexibility provided by current DI solutions. ...

Hey -- no offense taken!! I welcome vigorous debate on this stuff. In previous lifetimes, I have also worked for both Avid and Quantel. Nothing gets better in a product without constant back-and-forth and a strong dialogue between users/artists and manufacturers. I wasn't being defensive, but was genuinely asking, "ok -- I hear you... tell me what's wrong!"

Now for your "colorist being given processes" stuff... You haven't hung around many professional colorists, have you?

Colorists, by and large, are creatures of intuition and memory. They work with hardware control surfaces, and know those surfaces like the back of their hands. Watch a good colorist at work, and they rarely look down from the screen. They have muscle memory of where all the buttons and knobs are, what they do and how they do it.

There are two ways that I've seen of coming at color - from a "traditional colorist" viewpoint, and from a "compositing" viewpoint. Traditional colorists don't look at many numbers. They trust their eyes above everything else. They have an intuition for what is wrong with an image, how to fix it, and how to fix it fast. Sometimes they can explain that and sometimes can't. That's the real skill and art of being a colorist. Coming at color from a compositing viewpoint is an ability to analyze an image and say, "I need to take blue from black about 20%; key green and shift 10% to red; and draw a tracked vector over the face so it brightens." So you mouse-click exactly to the correct tools for that, set it up, and do it.

Both approaches get you to the same place. One is realtime, fluid, and works with a client over your shoulder. The other typically does not.

Lucas

 

[visceralpsyche]

You can always use After Effects for your indie color grading needs. It has been done before, it would be much more time consuming, but indies have more time than money.

Yes... yes you can.... (sitting here doing AE colour grading on my current short....)

But I've seen a demo of Lustre and baby, when I get proper funding I will definitely be getting some form of pro colour correction workstation going!!

 

[Shaw]

I hear ya Lucas. And I definitely know what you mean about colorists using control surfaces so well etc. Let me clarify (and for the record, no, I haven't worked with many professional colorists - I usually do the work myself, for better or for worse!)

Current grading systems take a one route fits all approach which just isn't true. There are times when working with an image in HSL is great - others when you just can't get the same effect and look of, say, replacing the luminance channel with the green channel from RGB.

Now, I definitely understand your comment about working real-time with clients and colorists being creatures of habit with their control panels. My suggestion has never been to eliminate these things but rather work with them. Give colorists the ability to build their own toolset from a bunch of nodes and then assign those tools to the control panel. You can maintain all the speed and creative flow found in current software but you've suddenly empowered colorists with many more ways to approach an image that doesn't have to fall under a pre-set paradigm.

I'm also not convinced that being a colorist is so much more intuition and lack of technical knowledge. As far as I can tell those who are best have both skills. The ability to look at an image and quickly determine the problem - AND put that problem into words allowing him/her to achieve a creative and optimal fix fast. Good colorists need to know all sorts of psychology and color theory. Otherwise intuition just doesn't cut it. I'm personally of the opinion that maximum creativity is unleashed by knowing the in-and-outs of your given field and topic.

Basically, I'm arguing for the best of both technical and freewheeling creative worlds. And hey, if a colorist doesn't want to mess with the low level stuff then no worries - that's what pre-designed tools are for.

Out of curiosity, and on a separate topic, what does Scratch offer that other solutions don't? It's really hard to tell from the website.

 

[luki]

I'm also not convinced that being a colorist is so much more intuition and lack of technical knowledge. As far as I can tell those who are best have both skills. ... Good colorists need to know all sorts of psychology and color theory. Otherwise intuition just doesn't cut it. I'm personally of the opinion that maximum creativity is unleashed by knowing the in-and-outs of your given field and topic.

To use another analogy (I love good analogies...)

I know a *lot* of colorists who don't know beans about color theory. I also know tons of fantastically talented musicians who can't read music and don't know the first thing about formal music theory. A lot of colorists just know that if an image looks like "that," then they have to twist this knob this way, and that knob that way.

I'm certainly not saying that all colorists are like that. I also know some A-list colorists who work on major motion pictures that can quote SMPTE spec and know matrix math...

Also - most professional colorists just don't have time to mess with setting up their own algorithms and then assigning it to a control panel. Seriously. When I want to see some of the colorists who are my customers, I need to schedule it about a week or two in advance. They are booked that solidly.

I think what we'll see with the tools you describe is a new generation of colorists... people with wide talents across multiple disciplines who can (and will) mess with algorithms and assignments...

Lucas