red vs. hvx

slimchrisp

slimchrisp

Well-known member
right now i'm a dvx owner, but to expand on business, i want to pick up an hd camera. i've did my research, and hvx seemed the way to go for me. and then, i got sucked into reduser.net. damn it.

ok, so the red isn't even out. and the price for a stripped down functional red using the nikon lenses i already own will set me back around 20 large, and that's before putting together a pimped out editing workstation that can handle what red will throw at me. and of course, the price is subject to change, if i am even able to get my hands on one at all.

for about 10 grand, i can be up and running with a nice hvx setup. and i can order that today (except for the cineporter that i would get as well).

but it seems like in the grand scheme of things, 20k for a red camera is dirt cheap. it will grow with my needs, and be a workhorse for years to come. plus, damn it looks cool.

i could rent an hvx when i need it, and wait to see how the whole red thing looks in a year or so. but then again, aside from the time it takes me to "scrape" together $20,000+, who knows when a non reservation holder will even be able to get a red?

so basically, just rambling.

thoughts anyone?
 
Not to hate on the people with red reservations right now, because I'm am jealous as hell... but, do you really want to be the beta tester for the first wave of these cameras? I mean, there's a chance that it will be absolutely perfect... but I would think there would likely be more of a chance of little issues here and there that people will piss and moan about (and rightly so) until the next few waves of cameras come out with updates. If you're in the market right now, I'd go with the HVX. In fact, I just did :) so take everything I just said with a grain of salt.... actually, on second thought, just get the red so there will be more beta testers out there to clean up the problems before I decide to pick one up ;)
 
senomar said:
actually, on second thought, just get the red so there will be more beta testers out there to clean up the problems before I decide to pick one up ;)
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lol.

yeah. very good points. and 20K is a LOT of money to be a beta tester, at least for me.

how long have you had your hvx?
 
The best time to buy a camera is when you need it.
If you're doing paying jobs - an HVX should pay for itself well before you'd be able to get your hands on a RED camera anyhow.

I had the same debate with myself just a couple of weeks ago - then again, I just got an HVX, so clearly I'm biased in that direction now.

Point is - if you can make the money back - buying the HVX in the meantime seems like a no brainer to me. And if you can't make the money back...then I would have to ask whether or not you really want to spend 10K on a camera setup...much less 20+K?
:thumbsup:



Just my 2 cents.
 
ˆˆ I agree .... I haven't actually gotten the camera yet. Sent payment/paperwork out today, and should be picking it up in the next few days. Needless to say, I'm pretty excited.
 
Luis Caffesse said:
The best time to buy a camera is when you need it.
If you're doing paying jobs - an HVX should pay for itself well before you'd be able to get your hands on a RED camera anyhow.

I had the same debate with myself just a couple of weeks ago - then again, I just got an HVX, so clearly I'm biased in that direction now.

Point is - if you can make the money back - buying the HVX in the meantime seems like a no brainer to me. And if you can't make the money back...then I would have to ask whether or not you really want to spend 10K on a camera setup...much less 20+K?
:thumbsup:



Just my 2 cents.
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Well said, very, very, well said.

And even though the red camera looks great at 4k how will you even edit above 1080i right now anyway? Go HVX and sell it once the red camera has proven itself. Who knows maybe Red will be eclipsed by another camera in that time anyway.
 
Red seems like a worthy investment if you treat it just as that. "an investment" its like real estate. You put a lot of money in to a house in hopes of selling it for more. If you cant make the red pay for itself (or at least come close) in 3 or 4 years then you may want an HVX.

I would say your biggest mistake is thinking you can get away with a RED camera for $20k. The camera body is estimated at nearly $18k alone. Then factor in a matte box, rods, a tripod, a RED DRIVE to actually shoot with the thing, Lenses, and most importanly an editing station that will support 2k. Because lets face it, if you never shoot higher than HD (or cant support anything higher) theres no reason for a RED.

I would expect you to drop AT LEAST $30k on just the camera. Plus the cost of a 2k/4k work station. Im sure youll also want an HD field monitor too ($$$).

You have to remember that you have to factor in all of the components that let the camera function at the level its intended. For the RED camera this includes building a setup around 2k/4k.

If I were you, I'd consider an HVX with a 35 adapter and a firestore or maybe wait for the cineporter. By the time the RED finally releases you could have shot a handful of projects and made back half of what the HVX cost you to begin with.
 
Those are all good points Avenger.
I just got an HVX ...and while I was estimating I would spend a certain amount...
then i realized I was going to need an extended battery for the firestore, additional hard drive space on my system, as well as an upgrade to my FCP setup.

Not a WHOLE lot of money - but in the end it tacked on about 1250+ to my original estimate. Not exactly change.

So yes, make sure you're thinking the entire workflow through.
The price tag of the camera is just the start - regardless of which camera you go with.
 
WElll........ the argument for 2k and 4K is that the higher quality will down res Perfectly into a RAZOR sharp 1080P. And 4k into a RAZOR sharp 2k.... And if you need it, and can afford you will always have the 4K originals if theres ever a film out option/ or 4k Projection.

Like the way we now shoot 720P to make GREAT looking SD.......

but i mean, thecamera is just the first 1/3 of the purchase. Then you need Lenses, and trust me while nikon will work, the are not built to be usd like a real cine lens, the lens barrels telescope, the lenses breathe, and the arent quite bult to the kind of optical precision that Cookes are. For example at full wide open, most 35mm photo lenses suck. CA, distortion, Etc. They really only work well when stopped down into the middle of the Fstop range.
 
overlandfilms said:
SEARCH already.

e
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wow, that was really helpful. and yes, i have searched. and read a billion posts. but again, thanks.:violent5:

thanks everyone for your comments. i guess you're telling me what i already know. hvx is the way to go. not that that's a bad thing by any means at all.

but in my soul i REAAALLLY want a red.

someday...
 
At the end of the day - no one cares (other than us maybe) what something was shot on.
I've seen just as much crap shot on 35 as I've seen fantastic stuff that was done on DV.

I don't think I've ever seen something that was any good, but thought - hmm, if only it was shot in 4k.
:thumbsup:

Keep that in mind and get what you can afford at the time that you need it.
 
LOL, I know! I really shouldn't have replied, but should you have really asked the question in the first place? Really?

As I started replying, it just kept growing on me that this topic has literally been done to death. It's way beyond a mentoring exercise around here with counseling people on whether they should buy this or that or what has better bokeh or does the FS100 really work.

We're all excited, but the camera is, despite all the talk of revolution, a system designed for experienced filmmakers who already make a living behind the lens.

It isn't a camera to cut your teeth on. One piece of RED's glass costs what many entry-level HD cameras cost alone. The HVX, a camera that shoots 1080p - the current, cutting-edge standard, is the same price as the RED zoom.

That doesn't matter to a filmmaker who works his 35mm or CineAlta F900 package 120 days a year already. Someone who is renting Arri cameras or VariCams sixty days a year should seriously look at investing their resources in a system like RED - or any of Panasonic's new 2/3" P2HD systems.

Eventually, you have to look beyond the hype and amazing, constantly-evolving technology and decide if RED makes sense for you. Perhaps you can use the camera without worry over matters of finance or you've got real, paying opportunities lined-up where the technology can be utilized.

Maybe you're like a third of the depositors, who have a dream and no avenue to get the kit working when, and if, they pay the balance due.

I've often said that owning a RED is akin to owning a 35mm camera. It's sexy and makes amazing images, but you are the only person who can answer whether it makes sense to own one.

HVX <$10k, RED <$30k.

All the information is out there. Get the gigs, rent the camera a few times and then make your decision.

That's what I would have written before, but it's been written a thousand times in these forums already.

e
 
Not to rain on anybodys parade but besides just paying for the RED isn't where it will stop. Just being able to handle footage of RED's caliber will be a burden for much IMO. The size of the files alone will be alot higher then I think people realize. Terebytes and Terebytes of space needed just to hold a features worth of footage. Doesn't seem practical at all to me especially for someone who doesn't have that kind of money obviously ;)

- Kyle
 
The big issue with the Red, and for that matter, the HVX is what will be the defacto HD deliverable. There's nothing out right now for our HD stuff.. atleast not uniformally and in wide adoption... So a 4k cam is even more outside of the box.. and will all of that extra resolution translate to HD or blue ray disks. I think that this is somewhat of an area of concern for us.. as the media manufacturers are all dragging their feet on this stuff bigtime...

Am I alone in wondering this stuff. I mean, right now.. I think that the only viable option is quicktime on the Mac and the windows media on PC... and Divix maybe.
 
yea its funny, WMVHD9 is a GREAT codec. it handles 1080P/i 720P and its file sizes are a fraction of the raw footage while mainting most of the resolution and actually negating most of the Noise we assosciate with the HVX. I wish the WMVHD DVD players were more popular, cause you can watch it RIGHT NOW, and make it at home for pennies!
 
First off, always waiting for the new technology gets you no where. There will always be another revolution on the horizon. We don't know when RED will ship and, since it has no proven track record, whether it will be worth it upon release. I put off buying my HVX200 for two months just to check out RED at NAB 2006. I then realized that I should invest in a great camera now and, if I hadn't, I wouldn't have been able to do the last four jobs I've done (I'll hopefully have had the camera paid off itself by the summer). How long do you want to wait for this thing?

That said, if you're thinking about buying an HVX200, you shouldn't be thinking about RED because they are in two different leagues.

RED is designed to compare with 35mm film. Are you anywhere near that league? I'm not trying to be condescending because I no I'm not anywhere near that league and, if I was, I wouldn't be looking at an HVX200. I'd be looking at a CineAlta or a Varicam (which is the real market I think RED will cut in to). I don't know what kind of work you do but, if you're like me and doing corporate videos, commercials, and that kind of stuff; RED would be a complete waste. My clients do love the detail and beauty of the HVX but everything they get is on an SD DVD or occasionally 720p (hardly anyone owns 1080p sets). Unless you're shooting something with a 35mm film transfer in mind or 1080p/2k/4k digital projection, I don't see much of a reason to invest in RED.

And, as others have pointed out, it's not just gonna be 20k. It's a bigger camera with bigger needs as far as accesories and editing equipment goes. You're looking at at least 25-30k simply to get an image which will pass through a lense and be recorded some way. Then you'll need a FAR more expensive computer to edit. It's just a different league.

If you were part of a big business with cash to blow and wanted to produce national commercials or films that would show on theater screens then you'd probably want to get RED when it was released (as it looks amazing). But I don't think that's your case and, even if it was, you're gonna need to shoot with something untill RED comes out and has been put through the runs.
 
Justyn said:
The big issue with the Red, and for that matter, the HVX is what will be the defacto HD deliverable. There's nothing out right now for our HD stuff.. atleast not uniformally and in wide adoption... So a 4k cam is even more outside of the box.. and will all of that extra resolution translate to HD or blue ray disks. I think that this is somewhat of an area of concern for us.. as the media manufacturers are all dragging their feet on this stuff bigtime...
Click to expand...

Everyone thought Blu-Ray was gonna take over but with HD-DVD getting a head start, having a higher quality batch of initial movies, being cheaper, and with the PS3 not selling what Sony hoped it would; right now the future is more uncertain than ever.
 
If your business has a good income and you can get work here and now on the HVX then get the HVX..... In a years time a second hand HVX will proberly be worth $4k USD Sell it then add the rest for the Red....

The Red looks good and I hear a hell of a lot of promises.... Sounds like a political election, but I would wait like a few people said for others with the big bucks to Beta test it then get it once its the perfect product....

Cheers
 
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