unless ur working back to back on project to project as a dp or camera operator.. why spend that much money on a set of lenses? renting sounds alot more reasonable to me.. at least when it comes to a production that requires so many lenses.. im not saying dont have any lenses at all... but zeiss... cooke.. arri? used maybe (as long as they dont have any fungus or scratches) but seriously.. NIKON makes some nice glass for not so much money.
RED T1.9 Prime Lens Set
- Thread starter Rory Hinds
- Start date
tonacidigital
Well-known member
zakaree said:
The question to buy or rent is a challenging one. There are so many different categories of RED reservation holders. Some that can barely afford the CAMERA and will be using still lenses to those who are ready to throw down 50,000 for a complete red package.
At 17,500, the RED is priced within a range that individuals would actually consider buying...hence the 1000+ current reservations. Compare this to the cinealta, Thompson, Dalsa...where renting is the usual choice since it costs so much. Likewise, with the Cooke and Zeiss Mater Primes, you are looking at spending 100,000 plus for a set. If RED could make comparable lenses and price them around 20-30,000 a set, it would seduce more individuals to consider purchasing rather than renting.
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taubkin
Veteran
A lot of people would be interested. Super16 camera owners, looking for a new set of lenses... DPs that like to use their own lenses with rental cameras (it happens, from time to time), Red owners, etc... But of course the main market would still have to be red owners, since they would be the first to use those lenses and show to the world what they could do. Now, I still think the price has to be right, otherwise, I don't know how they can take profit from them... Producing 1000+ cameras is something I can understand as profitable, but 150-200 lens kits... well, not quite...
yah.. ok so.. im 24 years old.. and i am in the bracket of buyers that will take out a small business loan.. and make payments.. i have nikon lenses. mattebox.followfocus and support rods... so whats wrong with nikon> will it not get the job done? (indi, commercials).. i guess i can sell my 07 lexus is250... should have gotten a used 98 ranger instead....
also, besides the camera body, usual customers want you to have a choice oftonacidigital said:
- tripods
- adapters for those tripods
- setmonitors (9, 14, 20, 24, crt, lcd, sd or hd or both)
- vectorscope, waveform, gamutmeasurement.
- french flag and a croziel or arri mattebox
- followfocus / focusassist / remotefocus
- etc for iris and zoom
- a solid selection of primes and zooms
- raincoats, carrybag, flightcases etc
- power cells, charging units, v-mount and more exotic one
- viewfinders, dioptren adapters for the shortsighted as me please
- pick a choice of the most exotic gadget you´ve never heard about.
- *replacement for everything of this* if something fails
so, and that is one important thing to remember: longstanding rental companies as mine usually have this and typically make a package offer with all of the above and often a good deal for filmout/DI etc. so don´t underestimate the big shop around the corner and be careful with your business plans, folks. its not only the camera. actually, the camerabody itself is usually 20-30% of the invest for one rental setup, that is, if you don´t have backup. then it is 10-15%.
please, don´t get me wrong - i don´t want to tell anyone not to go into rental. i just want to share some of the lessons i have learned the hard way when i (as twen) started into that business and believe me, your employees might be happier if you take the advice
rather more.tonacidigital said:
lol, funny one - purchasing instead of renting i suppose?tonacidigital said:
yes, i completly agree if that is what you wanted to type.
however a slight warning here.
- a budget dops often want the best of best of the state of the art - simply because they can get it.
While the red camera is excellent in any aspects, a T1.9 prime set is just really really good, especially if red would sell it at a red-pricepoint. electronics vs. mechanics - red can´t be as wildstyle as they can be with cameras if it comes to optics (i sincerly hope than mr. jannard proves me wrong
)We here and there see DOP who -don´t- want our angenieux 25-250 but the newer and yes a slight little bit better optimo.
now, one of the main advantes of the optimo is that it can be custom tailored to your prime set to have the same look. guess what, even if they just get a zoom and no primes... they still want the optimo. so be careful. quality and opinion are 2 things, logic & facts won´t replace emotions and heresay for many people.
Brook Willard
Well-known member
As much as I want a set of RED primes, I'd want to wait until after NAB '07 to hear about it. They have their hands full enough with the camera... I can wait for lenses.
tonacidigital
Well-known member
100,000 a set
"rather more."
Yeah, I typed it as a generalization.. i should have added a "+" to the figure.. since I myself don't know the exact cost of the total set..but I do know it is more than 100 grand.
"seduce more people into buy than renting"
Renting is what I meant hahaha...super typo.
"rather more."
Yeah, I typed it as a generalization.. i should have added a "+" to the figure.. since I myself don't know the exact cost of the total set..but I do know it is more than 100 grand.
"seduce more people into buy than renting"
Renting is what I meant hahaha...super typo.
tonacidigital
Well-known member
Brook Willard said:
Yeah.. I'll be happy enough to see the camera shipping as planned and really could live without the lenses...but I still enjoy discussing the possibilities and I do feel a poll, even if premature, is still useful.
130.000-140.000 euro typical without storage and accesoires...tonacidigital said:
you can(could?) negotiate them down to ~90.000 (sorry bandpro if you are reading this) when you avoided their distributors. but right now, i have the impression, they are more than overbook. angenieux is overbooked as well (optimo delivery moving into 2008 oO), cooke i don´t know but i would guess not to different.
indeed, supertypo out of hell with bells & whistles....tonacidigital said:
anyhow, i suppose that my english (sry, its my 3hrd language) contains plentyful of "supersilly sentences"(tm) and "completly clumsy"(tm) claims.
Rory Hinds
Member
The biggest problem I see myself facing is that of lenses with the RED gets released. The though of finally having the camera but no lenses to shoot with.
I've reserved the 300mm which hopefully will come with the camera and have the Zoom on order too but will have to wait until the end of the year for that.
I've read that RED hope to have a Canon & Nikon mount available at release date but having used still lenses for the past year with my M2 I'm so tied of the compromise.
Still lenses simply aren't designed for motion pictures. Sure they are great if you have a locked off shot with no focus pulling or living with the compromise of the lens breathing.
I was thinking I would purchase a set of Zeiss T1.3's but hearing RED might make a set of T1.9's I'd think my money is better spent on a new set of lenses from RED. The investment is surely to be more secure on a set of new RED's than a set of old Zeiss IMO.
The only killer thing is the wait game. Renting is an option but I find renting very restrictive as I want the time to experiment with the lenses.
So at the time of release unless I want to use still lenses (which I don't), I'm faced with either buying a 10 year old set of Zeiss or renting. The B4 mount is another professional option but no delivery date has been mentioned so I guess there is a wait on that.
My ultimate fear is to invest $20k -$25k on a set of old Zeiss T1.3's and have them devalue once the RED set are released.
If I know the roadmap / timeline of RED lenses I'd be able to make a more informed decision. If say RED Primes where a year off release of the camera then that would give me 1 year to use old Zeiss T1.3 and make sure I make enough content to justify the expense.
The problem I'm sure a lot of facing is that Zeiss T1.3 are in short supply and this is driving the price up and the longer we leave it the higher the price will be. But the high price you end up paying could be knocked down once the RED primes are available as the market for old Zeiss would shift to new RED's IMO.
What to do? What to do?
Too many variables and quite a chunky some of money we're playing with here.
I've reserved the 300mm which hopefully will come with the camera and have the Zoom on order too but will have to wait until the end of the year for that.
I've read that RED hope to have a Canon & Nikon mount available at release date but having used still lenses for the past year with my M2 I'm so tied of the compromise.
Still lenses simply aren't designed for motion pictures. Sure they are great if you have a locked off shot with no focus pulling or living with the compromise of the lens breathing.
I was thinking I would purchase a set of Zeiss T1.3's but hearing RED might make a set of T1.9's I'd think my money is better spent on a new set of lenses from RED. The investment is surely to be more secure on a set of new RED's than a set of old Zeiss IMO.
The only killer thing is the wait game. Renting is an option but I find renting very restrictive as I want the time to experiment with the lenses.
So at the time of release unless I want to use still lenses (which I don't), I'm faced with either buying a 10 year old set of Zeiss or renting. The B4 mount is another professional option but no delivery date has been mentioned so I guess there is a wait on that.
My ultimate fear is to invest $20k -$25k on a set of old Zeiss T1.3's and have them devalue once the RED set are released.
If I know the roadmap / timeline of RED lenses I'd be able to make a more informed decision. If say RED Primes where a year off release of the camera then that would give me 1 year to use old Zeiss T1.3 and make sure I make enough content to justify the expense.
The problem I'm sure a lot of facing is that Zeiss T1.3 are in short supply and this is driving the price up and the longer we leave it the higher the price will be. But the high price you end up paying could be knocked down once the RED primes are available as the market for old Zeiss would shift to new RED's IMO.
What to do? What to do?
Too many variables and quite a chunky some of money we're playing with here.
nycfilmmaker
Well-known member
cooke and zeiss have been around for decades. they specialze in optics not making cameras not making radios -- just optics. Millions of dollars and years upon years of engineering have gone into those optics. how could anyone say that red lenses will be better or even comparable than ziess or cookes? that's insanity. love the Red camera though.
Rory Hinds
Member
I don't doubt the quality of Zeiss or Cooke for the money you pay for them.
I think its logical to think RED will make fantastic lenses as they have Oakey behind them. Oakey know a thing or two about optics.
No ones reinventing the wheel here. Simply making quality lenses at affordable prices which the market needs. Zeiss and Cooke are beyond the reach of many and the market for Cinema products is growing fast.
I think its logical to think RED will make fantastic lenses as they have Oakey behind them. Oakey know a thing or two about optics.
No ones reinventing the wheel here. Simply making quality lenses at affordable prices which the market needs. Zeiss and Cooke are beyond the reach of many and the market for Cinema products is growing fast.
nycfilmmaker
Well-known member
hey if it were that simple as not reinventing the wheel then we would have dozens of quality cinema lense manufacturers. but the reality is for the last 30 years we have had less than a hand full.
comparing optics of eye glass technology to cinema lense technology is comparing apples to oranges. no offense, i've had dozens of oakleys in my life time.
comparing optics of eye glass technology to cinema lense technology is comparing apples to oranges. no offense, i've had dozens of oakleys in my life time.
Muttondraw
Well-known member
nycfilmmaker said:
I think the quantity of Cine lens manufacturers has more to do with the size and nature of the market rather then the abilities of optics producers.
How about comparing eye glass electrical technology with Sony? Apples and Oranges indeed, but I reckon Red can deliver. I would wait to see what Red can do before knocking their optics too thoroughly.
I think the initial concern is a valid one, assuming that the market is currently being inflated by demand for prime sets to partner with Red one then you might expect the market in second hand lenses to deflate if the supply is increased by the delivery of Red primes.
Martin
tonacidigital
Well-known member
nycfilmmaker said:
Sony, ARRi and Panny have been around for decades. Millions of dollars and years upon years of engineering have gone into making cameras. How could anyone say that RED, a company that has never made a camera before, could make one that will be better or even comparable to the Sony Cinealta, Panasonic Varicam or Arri d-20 and price it at a fraction of the cost. thats insanity. hehe.. seriously though, I highly doubt that the red 300mm prime and zoom will be slouches. Of course, a real comparison will come once the RED lenses ship. Then we'll see how they stack up against Zeiss and Cooke. bottomline... I wouldn't underestimate what this company can do.
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nycfilmmaker
Well-known member
why can't anyone in this board say anything to the contrary about RED without being condescended to or outcasted? (to tonacdigital) you are caught up so much in the hype that you lost your sight.
You don't get what i'm saying you are comparing sony, panny and Arri that make everything from lights to radios to tvs to whatever.
cookes and zeiss are in the league of their own.
Why put up a comparison poll, comparing the bench mark in cinema lenses to a lense that is in development and for all practical purposes is vaporware?
Give some respect to Cookes and Ziess’.
When Red comes out with their lense and is tested in comparison, objectively, by engineers and DPs then you could post a comparison poll.
cookes and zeiss as i said will never be replaced by red lenses. though A red camera could replace a sony or Panny, if they don't step up.
Have you ever used a pair of Ultra Prime Ts or cookes. Unbelievable! FOR Red to take over on the camera side in addition to the elitist high quality cinema lens arena is by far a huge stretch that will take years and years before, if ever, it comes to fruition.
A fan of the Red camera though. And not underestimating what the red company can do.
You don't get what i'm saying you are comparing sony, panny and Arri that make everything from lights to radios to tvs to whatever.
cookes and zeiss are in the league of their own.
Why put up a comparison poll, comparing the bench mark in cinema lenses to a lense that is in development and for all practical purposes is vaporware?
Give some respect to Cookes and Ziess’.
When Red comes out with their lense and is tested in comparison, objectively, by engineers and DPs then you could post a comparison poll.
cookes and zeiss as i said will never be replaced by red lenses. though A red camera could replace a sony or Panny, if they don't step up.
Have you ever used a pair of Ultra Prime Ts or cookes. Unbelievable! FOR Red to take over on the camera side in addition to the elitist high quality cinema lens arena is by far a huge stretch that will take years and years before, if ever, it comes to fruition.
A fan of the Red camera though. And not underestimating what the red company can do.
zeiss & cooke's cost BIG $$$$$$$$ ...
i have always found that item costing 5x more then another item doesn't mean it's 5x better ...
everybody getting a RED will have to see how much they have in their wallets and buy accordingly ... for some nothing but the BEST will do and they'll pay any price to get it ....
just because a cooke cost 30x more then a nikon still lens doesn't mean it is 30x better ....
and again for some the cooke IS 30x better ... and for others the cooke isn't worth the price ...
the best lens is usally the ones you can afford ...
we'll have to wait to see how the RED lens perform ...
P.S. the WORLD is no longer just because they've been doing it for 800 years a new person can't step in and do it just as good or better ...
i have always found that item costing 5x more then another item doesn't mean it's 5x better ...
everybody getting a RED will have to see how much they have in their wallets and buy accordingly ... for some nothing but the BEST will do and they'll pay any price to get it ....
just because a cooke cost 30x more then a nikon still lens doesn't mean it is 30x better ....
and again for some the cooke IS 30x better ... and for others the cooke isn't worth the price ...
the best lens is usally the ones you can afford ...
we'll have to wait to see how the RED lens perform ...
P.S. the WORLD is no longer just because they've been doing it for 800 years a new person can't step in and do it just as good or better ...
Muttondraw
Well-known member
I hope you don't take this post as condescending, not my intention at all.
I am not aware of anyone saying this, I have scanned through this thread a few times and I can't find anything to that effect. The only comparison I recall being made was Jim saying that they were aiming to get to about 90% of the quality of Cooke S4 (just my memory, I can't find a link). Now obviously that isn't a figure that has any real meaning apart from suggesting that Jim isn't saying Red lenses would be as good as S4s.
Errr. what comparison poll?... the poll in this thread is asking who would be likely to buy a set of Red Primes, the purpose being to help RED gauge likely demand. It isn't asking which is better RED lenses vs the rest of the world. I think you should read the posts in this thread again with that in mind because I really think you misunderstood whats going on here. For my part I think Red have the capability to produce well designed cine lenses at an attractive price point. It is the price point which makes them particularly interesting. They are going for a different market from Zeiss and Cooke. Hopefully the quality will be appropriate to the camera, until the lenses are available for independent testing there is no way of telling.
Martin
nycfilmmaker said:
I am not aware of anyone saying this, I have scanned through this thread a few times and I can't find anything to that effect. The only comparison I recall being made was Jim saying that they were aiming to get to about 90% of the quality of Cooke S4 (just my memory, I can't find a link). Now obviously that isn't a figure that has any real meaning apart from suggesting that Jim isn't saying Red lenses would be as good as S4s.
nycfilmmaker said:
Errr. what comparison poll?... the poll in this thread is asking who would be likely to buy a set of Red Primes, the purpose being to help RED gauge likely demand. It isn't asking which is better RED lenses vs the rest of the world. I think you should read the posts in this thread again with that in mind because I really think you misunderstood whats going on here. For my part I think Red have the capability to produce well designed cine lenses at an attractive price point. It is the price point which makes them particularly interesting. They are going for a different market from Zeiss and Cooke. Hopefully the quality will be appropriate to the camera, until the lenses are available for independent testing there is no way of telling.
Martin
tonacidigital
Well-known member
Perhaps RED is all hype to you. Thats fine. I am not caught up in an imaginary vaporware product. It's real, the footage is real and the stills are real. I have not lost sight of anything. I am simply extremely impressed with the RED one project thus far and given what they have done with the camera, I have confidence in their ability to produce quality lenses.nycfilmmaker said:
When you make comments such as "how could anyone say that red lenses will be better or even comparable than ziess or cookes? that's insanity"
No one on this board ever suggested that RED lenses will be BETTER than Zeiss or cookes. So stop fabricating an argument that doesn't even exist. In regards to comparable..this is a subjective term. So far that image from the RED 300mm prime aint too shabby. Jarred has commented that the RED 300mm is an incredible lens. But like I said clearly in my post. "Of course, a real comparison will come once the RED lenses ship. Then we'll see how they stack up against Zeiss and Cooke. "
Your statement that ---it is "insanity" to think that RED lenses could even be comparable to Zeiss or Cookes-- suggests that because RED is new to digital cinema, that they could never produce anything comparable.
As donatello suggested, being a dinosaur doesn't mean that no one can ever do better. Granted Oakley has not made cine glass before... you can't discount the fact they have 30 years experience w/optics. On top of this.. as mutton pointed out..Jim has stated that his goal was to produce lenses that will be something like 90% quality of the cooke... to me thats pretty comparable. So i guess you must also think Jim is insane..hehe..
"You don't get what i'm saying you are comparing sony, panny and Arri that make everything from lights to radios to tvs to whatever. "
Just because a company has many divisions doesn’t mean that their products are any less in quality to a company who has only one focused expertise.
"cookes and zeiss are in the league of their own."
Hey, there is no doubt that Cooke S4s are industry standard..not sure how often ZeissMaster Primes are used..but their images looked fabulous on that movie "Departed."
"Why put up a comparison poll, comparing the bench mark in cinema lenses to a lense that is in development and for all practical purposes is vaporware?"
Okay.. have you even looked at this poll? What comparison poll are you referring to? This poll is referring to potential interest in RED primes bro.
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