Red Scarlet S35

S

skital

Well-known member
Hey guys. I've been drooling over the Red Scarlet S35 and want to give up my Canon T2i when it comes out. The incredible dynamic range is one of the biggest points for me. That is the one major hurdle I felt digital had to cross to exceed film.

The problem is the S35 is $7k for the body only. For me, that is a lot of money, but I want to shoot awesome looking films with high dynamic range for me to play around with in post. I like that lighting won't be as much of an issue. Yes, I know lights are still a plus, but now in situations outside where I'd need fill light because the background is so bright I might not with the Red, because it sees more how the human eyes does.

I need to make money from this camera if I get it. I hope I do from my films, but I need a more sure fired way to make money from this. How should I go about this? I know it can be done, but where should I begin?

Would it be feasible to try to rent the camera out to independent film productions and maybe use it as an advantage to travel and make connections, meet other filmmakers, actors, etc while also making some money on the side?

I'm open to shooting weddings also, but if there are other ways to bring in money with this Red Scarlet S35 I'm all ears. It would be a dream come true to quite my job in retail unloading trucks for low pay. I love filming...so why not do it as a career? I just need to know how to get my foot in the door. :)
 
No offense dude, but I think for the most part, people are pretty done with talking about vaporware. The Scarlet thing is a joke at this point. Get the Af100 and call it a day. then go make make a film. I imagine this is why no nes bothered to even comment on this thread.
 
You cannot forego lighting. That's one of the biggest mistakes you can actually make in a fictional narrative film. The only conceivable situation in which I think you can skip the process of lighting is in a cinema direct or verite documentary, because even stupid reality shows like Real Housewives of ... are lit, and well sometimes.
 
I'm with maranfilms on this one. I don't think the scarlet should even be a consideration unless and until Red comes up with something concrete. Their overblown hype is getting to be just annoying background noise at this point.
 
Yeah, I know you can't forgo lighting but certain instances like say you are filming indoors and the window blows out when you expose for your characters you either have to:

A: Gel the window with an ND filter.
B: Jack up the lighting to a huge degree in the rest of the room to compensate or just to lower the blowout.

This also goes for filming against a bright sky behind your character. Either the sky will be blown out or you have to choose to make the character too dark if you want to retain the detail.....so you need fill light in order to get (say the T2i) in order to get the camera to see more like the way your eyes sees. With the red and HDRx it will have enough dynamic range that the fill light may not be necessary, because it will be able to see the range from light to dark more like the eye rather than you having to choose which you want to destroy....shadows or highlights. You can have your cake and eat it to.
 
Yes, I understand that, but say you have a room with 5 bulbs. All natural light and the room is pretty bright, but when the lights are right behind your character in the sames shot if you expose for the flesh tones then the lights will blow out a lot, but if you expose to keep the lights from blowing out too much then the character's flesh will become too dark, because the camera simply does not have enough dynamic range to expose for both. With the S35 you can get good highlight exposure as well as the back lit character's exposure without necessarily NEEDING to bounce a fill light to compensate for the lack of dynamic range. Outside situations with a bright sky behind a character are one of the biggest challenges of digital cameras, because it shows how flawed the dynamic range really is. Basically, I mean you won't need to forgo lighting, but the lighting setups won't need to be as complicated, because certain setups are required in order to compensate for a camera's lack of dynamic range in order to make it look more like how the human eye would see it and with the S35 it can already do that with such a huge amount of dynamic range, thanks to the HDRx dual exposure.

I don't believe the scarlet S35 is vaporware at all. I just believe it's taking awhile, because they are doing something truly revolutionary. Footage has been posted. It's going to happen. It might take 6 months longer, but I think 6 or 7 months will be as long as it will be.

The AF100 looks nice, but to be honest it really seems like a Gh2 put in a video camera with a few extra features and nothing truly revolutionary. Red was right about all these HUGE manufacturers and it's been obvious for years in just about every electronics product. They don't care or want to cut into their high end line so they make tiny upgrades year after year on upgraded models to sell to us all, rather than revolutionizing. Once in a blue moon they will do something big, but then will find way to avoiding cutting into their high end products by crippling it somehow. Red is bringing a revolution....something extraordinary. Might take awhile, but they aren't playing clever games making small improvements to current cameras or rebadging current cameras with small upgrade to sell at a premium. That's why they take longer.
 
Ok first things first. I to believe the Scarlet will eventually come out. When will it come out? Who knows. And you can see from some responses already here, people have grown tired of the hype and waiting. Personally it doesnt bother me at all as I just use whats available today and look at tomorrow when it comes.

Secondly, how good are you? I dont know you or your work. But are you good enough? Dont need to answer me here, doesnt matter what I think does it. But if you compare your work to others is it up to speed to do this full time? If so great.

Thirdly, I would never buy a Scarlet to try and get return on rental unless you add yourself as a proven camera operator / cinematographer / DOP - and in those cases they wont care you have Scarlet anyway.

Fourthly, when you say "your open to shooting weddings", do you have any experience doing this? Because if not, I fear youll have to put yourself in the working for peanuts wedding shooters category. There are some extremely talented, professional wedding shooters out there and youll be hard pressed to chew into their market.

The long and short of my answer to your post is - if you think the Scarlet S35 is going to give you a career. Its not even close to truth. You, your skill, your behaviour etc will give you a career.

skital said:
The AF100 looks nice, but to be honest it really seems like a Gh2 put in a video camera with a few extra features and nothing truly revolutionary. Red was right about all these HUGE manufacturers and it's been obvious for years in just about every electronics product. They don't care or want to cut into their high end line so they make tiny upgrades year after year on upgraded models to sell to us all, rather than revolutionizing. Once in a blue moon they will do something big, but then will find way to avoiding cutting into their high end products by crippling it somehow. Red is bringing a revolution....something extraordinary. Might take awhile, but they aren't playing clever games making small improvements to current cameras or rebadging current cameras with small upgrade to sell at a premium. That's why they take longer.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I suggest you do some more reading on the AF100 - its not in any way shape or form related to the GH2. Barry Green made a post in the last few days in response to a similar claim - look for it in the AF100 forum. Last year Panasonic had 1/3" chip and 2/3" chip cameras. This year they are releasing a 4/3 chip camera, thats pretty big IMO.

Anyway good luck in your endeavours. This post was not meant to deter you, but I did hope it shows some hurdles youll need to jump over. The fun part is usually the jumping part.
 
Noel Evans said:
Ok first things first. I to believe the Scarlet will eventually come out. When will it come out? Who knows. And you can see from some responses already here, people have grown tired of the hype and waiting. Personally it doesnt bother me at all as I just use whats available today and look at tomorrow when it comes.

Secondly, how good are you? I dont know you or your work. But are you good enough? Dont need to answer me here, doesnt matter what I think does it. But if you compare your work to others is it up to speed to do this full time? If so great.

Thirdly, I would never buy a Scarlet to try and get return on rental unless you add yourself as a proven camera operator / cinematographer / DOP - and in those cases they wont care you have Scarlet anyway.

Fourthly, when you say "your open to shooting weddings", do you have any experience doing this? Because if not, I fear youll have to put yourself in the working for peanuts wedding shooters category. There are some extremely talented, professional wedding shooters out there and youll be hard pressed to chew into their market.

The long and short of my answer to your post is - if you think the Scarlet S35 is going to give you a career. Its not even close to truth. You, your skill, your behaviour etc will give you a career.



Yeah, I suggest you do some more reading on the AF100 - its not in any way shape or form related to the GH2. Barry Green made a post in the last few days in response to a similar claim - look for it in the AF100 forum. Last year Panasonic had 1/3" chip and 2/3" chip cameras. This year they are releasing a 4/3 chip camera, thats pretty big IMO.

Anyway good luck in your endeavours. This post was not meant to deter you, but I did hope it shows some hurdles youll need to jump over. The fun part is usually the jumping part.
Click to expand...

How much of an improvement over the T2i will the Af100 realistically be (ie dynamic range, low light...which of course will be hard using fast wide primes due to 2x crop factor)? Or say the 5D Mark II? For $6k it has to be a very clear and obvious step up over the 5D MKII in dynamic range and low light for me to even consider it and a huge step up from the T2i. Infact it needs to be close to Red Quality for the price they want. The most important thing to me is dynamic range. Hands down. Everything else, including resolution....takes a backseat. Low light ability is up there as well, but still 2nd to dynamic range. It seems these big manufacturers do not care about big improvements in the dynamic range area for good reason.

I'm loving my T2i and it's pretty great overall, but there are still instances where I have to choose to blow out highlights or crush dark detail or find a way to light it up, but to me dynamic range is the big stepping stone digital has had to hurdle to top film and now the Red has done that and exceeded the dynamic range of film. That is huge and will help tremendously in many types of shots the include brights and darks or back lit subjects. You won't need as many work arounds to deal with the camera's dynamic range.

I think I'm pretty capable. I'm not going to put myself up there with anyone, because I need more experience, but I'm good with color grading and I believe I can become great with more practice. I wouldn't mind doing a free wedding for experience and recognition. I just want to be able to make a return on my investment somehow. I do believe I can shoot great footage for people, so if that's what will help me get a return on my investment I believe it can happen. I just wanted to know that if I bring quality work how feasible it would be to get jobs.

Anyway, how different is the AF100 than say a T2i, a 5D or GH2? I still don't like the sensor because it crops too much and if I want to use a 20mm F1.8 it becomes 40mm. Is the AF100 going to be a clear step up in dynamic range or low light over any of these cameras? The things is I'm just having a hard time seeing it crush even the T2i. I see it slightly topping it and making improvements over some of the negatives like rolling shutter, aliasing and moire, but I'm getting a strong feeling that the "Wow, this is what I've been waiting for all along in a camera" is not going to be there with the AF100 and I'll be more like "Well, it's a bit better....at least the rolling shutter, aliasing and moire are less of an issue, but I still can't use a fast wide F1.8 lens. Ugh!". I'm thinking the only camera that will be the step up I'm looking for won't be released by a major huge company like Canon, Panasonic, etc for at least 5-10 years. Unless Red pushes them to change via their innovation.

Thanks for your reply. I appreciate it!
 
The above posts are spot on. If there is anything I can add, it is the very simple advice that no one is EVER going to hire you because of what your camera can do, they are going to hire you because of what you can do with your camera.

You want to get your foot in the door, well, you said that you have a camera, a T2i. Now, we all know that this camera is not a perfect camera, but I have to give it some serious props, that little f***er CAN make some great images. Go out there and shoot with the T2i, learn everything you can about it, and try different ideas... heck you are shooting to a SD card and that is cheap. Hook up with some local up and coming bands and shoot some videos for them. Videos are a great way to experiment and learn. There is another basic truth; if you can't take a camera like the T2i and make images that make people go, "Wow", then, nothing personal, but why waste the money on a Scarlet S35?

I do have to say something about this idea that the Red (and other cameras) High Dynamic Range sensors means that, "We ain't gotta worry about lighting". Well, that is just Bunk!! The control and creative use of lighting is the absolute essence of cinematography. The use of High Dynamic Range sensors may change the tools and techniques of cinematography, but it will not change the fact that a film's lighting will need to be creatively controlled to further the story. Those decisions, IMHO, need to be made by a skilled, dedicated cinematographer, in deference to the director of course. Another thing that the High Dynamic range sensors will never be able to change is the logistics of film making. A High Dynamic range sensor will not be able to change the fact that a sunny day picnic scene is scheduled for a day that is overcast and raining, or that a dramatic scene that takes place on an overcast and cloudy day is scheduled for a day that turns out to be bright and sunny. A High Dynamic range sensor will not change that a romantic bed room scene has too be shot during the day, and of course the director wants "Moon light" coming through the windows. You get the point, a person that does not know how to creatively use light, will shoot images with a High Dynamic range camera that look like sh*t compared to images shot with a High Dynamic camera by a person that has honed their craft, and understands lighting, and its creative contribution to a story. Take the camera you have now and lean all you can. You might be surprised and figure out a way to make some money with a T2i.... then you won't have to worry about buying a Scarlet S35 camera... you might just have clients that will foot the bill to rent it for you to use for them.

Good luck.
 
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really, until it comes out (if it EVER does), focus on what you have and what you can do with it. RED may never release the Scarlett. When you outgrow the T2i move on, just dont look over the horizon waiting for the next best camera that *might* come out.
 
Noel Evans said:
Last year Panasonic had 1/3" chip and 2/3" chip cameras. This year they are releasing a 4/3 chip camera, thats pretty big IMO.
Click to expand...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Micro_Four_Thirds_system

"The Four Thirds system used a 4:3 image aspect ratio, in common with other compact digital cameras but unlike APS-C or full-frame DSLRs which usually adhere to the 3:2 aspect ratio of the traditional 35 mm format. Thus "The Four Thirds refers to both the size of the imager and the aspect ratio of the sensor".[5] Note that actual size of the chip is considerably less than 4/3 of an inch, the length of the diagonal being only 22.5 mm. The 4/3 inch designation for this size of sensor dates back to the 1950s and vidicon tubes, when the external diameter of the video camera tube was measured."

22.5mm = 0.88 inch
 
RieniO said:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Micro_Four_Thirds_system

"The Four Thirds system used a 4:3 image aspect ratio, in common with other compact digital cameras but unlike APS-C or full-frame DSLRs which usually adhere to the 3:2 aspect ratio of the traditional 35 mm format. Thus "The Four Thirds refers to both the size of the imager and the aspect ratio of the sensor".[5] Note that actual size of the chip is considerably less than 4/3 of an inch, the length of the diagonal being only 22.5 mm. The 4/3 inch designation for this size of sensor dates back to the 1950s and vidicon tubes, when the external diameter of the video camera tube was measured."

22.5mm = 0.88 inch
Click to expand...

Very interesting.... And...?

The standards of the 4/3 system are established, without a doubt. For video a 4/3 standards sensor is a major break through. Is it perfect? No. Is it "Better" than anything else offered at the same price point? YES.
 
skital said:
I need to make money from this camera if I get it. I hope I do from my films, but I need a more sure fired way to make money from this. How should I go about this? I know it can be done, but where should I begin?

Would it be feasible to try to rent the camera out to independent film productions and maybe use it as an advantage to travel and make connections, meet other filmmakers, actors, etc while also making some money on the side?

I'm open to shooting weddings also, but if there are other ways to bring in money with this Red Scarlet S35 I'm all ears. It would be a dream come true to quite my job in retail unloading trucks for low pay. I love filming...so why not do it as a career? I just need to know how to get my foot in the door. :)
Click to expand...

IMO there won't be a very big rental market for the Scarlet. People thought the same thing when the Red One came out and, from what I've read, the bottom fell out of the the Red One rental game pretty quick because so many people bought them w/the intent to rent them (or just bought them outright because they were so inexpensive).

I also don't think buying a Scarlet will open up any more doors that aren't already accessible to you now. If you can't make money now w/your T2i upgrading to a Scarlet won't change that, IMO. The good thing about gear dropping in price so fast is that it makes it accessible to almost everyone. The bad thing about gear dropping in price so fast is that it makes it accessible to almost everyone.:grin:


-Andrew
 
Have you fully thought through pricing?.... you say $7000 for the brain is a high price for you. Firstly, the brain will be going up to at least $8000 due to HDRx (I expect a higher price hike for the s35 though).

Now, if you want to rent, you will also need the top end accessories.

To use the full features of the camera, you will need SSD. So that is at least $4k for your media. EVF, LCD, pro I/O, Power, Redmote plus a nice set a cine lenses will be required to compete with the rental houses.

I think $30k will get you a good rental kit. Unfortunately, you will be competing with Epic owners that wont have spent that much more ($50k?) so you will need to undercut the Epic rental prices by quite a bit.

Personally, unless you know alot of people in the business and live in an area that doesn't have huge rental houses.... I would forget making alot of cash from rentals.

As others have suggested.... get the AF-100 and try to make the money with that to buy a nice Scarlet package when it finally launches. You can start builidning up your lens collection, accessories and, of course, continue learning the craft with what looks to be a great camera.
 
David G. Smith said:
Very interesting.... And...?

The standards of the 4/3 system are established, without a doubt. For video a 4/3 standards sensor is a major break through. Is it perfect? No. Is it "Better" than anything else offered at the same price point? YES.
Click to expand...

And? That we have to stick with facts and shouldn't invent some urban legend about the 4/3 chip being a 1.33 inch chip. It's a 0.88 inch chip! Which is fine with me, I prefer this to a 35mm chip.
 
But EVERY "inch" chip is that way. 2/3 isn't 2/3 of an inch, and 1/2 isn't 1/2 of an inch, and 1/3 isn't 1/3 of an inch, and 1/4 isn't 1/4 of an inch.

They're all measured off the outside diameter of the old vidicon tube. None of them measures what their "inch" designation says.

But, they are all fairly consistent with each other. A 2/3" chip is 4x as big as a 1/3" chip. And a 4/3 chip is 4x as big as a 2/3" chip.
 
stockfuel said:
Have you fully thought through pricing?.... you say $7000 for the brain is a high price for you. Firstly, the brain will be going up to at least $8000 due to HDRx (I expect a higher price hike for the s35 though).

Now, if you want to rent, you will also need the top end accessories.

To use the full features of the camera, you will need SSD. So that is at least $4k for your media. EVF, LCD, pro I/O, Power, Redmote plus a nice set a cine lenses will be required to compete with the rental houses.

I think $30k will get you a good rental kit. Unfortunately, you will be competing with Epic owners that wont have spent that much more ($50k?) so you will need to undercut the Epic rental prices by quite a bit.

Personally, unless you know alot of people in the business and live in an area that doesn't have huge rental houses.... I would forget making alot of cash from rentals.

As others have suggested.... get the AF-100 and try to make the money with that to buy a nice Scarlet package when it finally launches. You can start builidning up your lens collection, accessories and, of course, continue learning the craft with what looks to be a great camera.
Click to expand...

Ok, how much can I expect the S35 to cost if I just use canon/nikon lenses and get just what I absolutely need to shoot with the S35? I will forget about rentals for now and focus on shooting. I'm curious what I can expect to pay for media to shoot on and anything I for sure need. I think I'd use my own LCD monitor, because they charge a ton for theirs.

Also, I wasn't expecting to make a ton of cash from renting. Just like a little here and there...supplemental income to help pay for a portion of the camera or eventually in time...all of it....and also maybe to make connections on set and be apart of other productions. Maybe I'm just dreaming though. lol.

Thanks for the replies and good points. I think I'll stick with the T2i for now.
 
The thing is, they say it'll cost around $8000, but it'll end up costing alot more because you also have to buy the accesories.
 
The camera I am most waiting for is not the Scarlet or AF100 but the 5D Mark III or whatever they call it. It would not take many changes to the Mark II to make it an A camera for most of the indie filmmakers.

Do we really need to spend 10k, 15k or 30k on a camera system in today's age of high quality affordable cameras. Canon has a great opportunity in their next generation of HDSLRs to push the technology forward and in the process, take over the indie market.
 
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