Rick Burnett
Section Moderator
Hehe...I'll tell you after I receive my AF100 
Red Scarlet Delayed Again... Price increase up $1000
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Emanuel
Cross-Examiner
On the 2nd part, nothing to object against ;-)
AND
Yes, they both used the term "Epic" .... a well used movie making term. With a substantial difference though. And yes, everybody inside is aware that Canon competes with RED. It doesn't matter what redusers say on the subject matter. Yes, there's no coincidence regarding the use of that "Epic" tagline.
adkimery
Veteran
While it's true that Red can't compete by trying to 'out Sony, Sony' I do think the Red team realized that having product tiers isn't an evil thing.
Jannard also set out to "render obsolesce obsolete" and, well, that didn't exactly go as planned. We've moved from the Red One to Epic, fixed lens Scarlet and body-only Scarlet.
I'm not trying to dog pile on the company because I admire their lofty goals, but I don't see the point in pretending that the emperor is fully clothed. The company's tag line of "everything will change..." doesn't make them critic-proof.
-Andrew
Zissou
Well-known member
the scarlett was a great idea at initial concept time; now its delayed again and again, split into fixed and bayonet models, more options etc, and the price is increasing same with the delays.
the scarlett WAS a great idea. i waited for it; i budgeted for it, i looked into workflow and software integration. ive since gone with DLSR's and HDV cameras; im not holding my breath for RED or SCARLETT or FUSCHIA or whatever fantastic idea they come up with next; i already spent the money on the tools that i can use TODAY to grow my business, and i will not shift gears at this point.
If I delayed the release of products as much, or varied prices as much as RED, i would no longer be in business. DELIVERY is actually FAR more important than capabilities or promises. Maybe they should have stuck to making sunglasses.
the scarlett WAS a great idea. i waited for it; i budgeted for it, i looked into workflow and software integration. ive since gone with DLSR's and HDV cameras; im not holding my breath for RED or SCARLETT or FUSCHIA or whatever fantastic idea they come up with next; i already spent the money on the tools that i can use TODAY to grow my business, and i will not shift gears at this point.
If I delayed the release of products as much, or varied prices as much as RED, i would no longer be in business. DELIVERY is actually FAR more important than capabilities or promises. Maybe they should have stuck to making sunglasses.
Seems to me Red is mostly being criticized for sharing the ride, problems and all, as they go through their second gen product development cycle.
Many it would appear prefer the "ignorance is bliss" marketing approach.
Considering that Red One after three years on the market is radically better than when first released and arguably the best camera of its type at any price, I would say they have met the promise of "Obsolescence obsolete" pretty well. Free software upgrades alone have kept this camera pretty far ahead of the curve compared to anything else. With the MX upgrade at a fraction of the cost of a new camera, it is still pushing the limits of state of the art.
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One thing we cannot neglect: The Red One camera is now used worldwide, a camera respected and pretty much solidified in the production world. It has eaten into, Sony, Panasonic and Panavision markets, specially their high end production gear.
Only we, the forum visitors, the ones always checking for the new techs, are disappointed. When the Scarlet appears, I'm sure it will be accepted and integrated quickly in major production houses and be embraced by most indies. We all feel frustrated for not being able to get it, and their communication policy often frustrates more than anything else, but the truth is, with the current announced features, the Scarlet is THE indie camera of choice.
This doesn't prevent the purchase of an AF100. The Scarlet should probably only late 2011 or early 2012. Until then, your AF100 has already paid for itself and you can sell it for the Scarlet. I'm, for example selling my 7D for the AF100 (but keeping the mark II).
Only we, the forum visitors, the ones always checking for the new techs, are disappointed. When the Scarlet appears, I'm sure it will be accepted and integrated quickly in major production houses and be embraced by most indies. We all feel frustrated for not being able to get it, and their communication policy often frustrates more than anything else, but the truth is, with the current announced features, the Scarlet is THE indie camera of choice.
This doesn't prevent the purchase of an AF100. The Scarlet should probably only late 2011 or early 2012. Until then, your AF100 has already paid for itself and you can sell it for the Scarlet. I'm, for example selling my 7D for the AF100 (but keeping the mark II).
David G. Smith
Steak Knife Member
No, I prefer the, "This is our camera, here is what is costs and this is when it will be available..." marketing approach. I don't think that is too much to ask for.
As far as, "...Being along for the development ride...", what, are you kidding?.
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Well then don't complain about things you could care less for. If you'd rather have something concrete, don't follow what they say on their forum (I guess you could call that "marketing" in a loose sense...) and wait for the actual camera to come out. Simple as that.
David G. Smith
Steak Knife Member
Wow,... ya found me out... That is exactly what I am going to do.
Michael Olsen
Veteran
John Caballero
Veteran
Well, that means start saving your money 'cause PROS are expected to pay for higher priced, higher quality camera gear. If you are in the image making business, stills, video, etc., you have to invest in equipment like any other business and you are expected to recoup the money from that investment. If you are just experimenting and hoping for a breakthrough and don't have the money to invest then start thinking about a different camera brand. I think this Scarlet camera thing is going to make american business camera history, but not for the right reasons. Its sad how so many people are getting their hopes so high this way. Learn from the Japanese for God's sake. Make the product first then announce it to the world. No wonder they took over the camera business.
David G. Smith
Steak Knife Member
"Who is RED?
We didn't exactly know for sure. But we are slowly figuring it out.
The concept of RED was to build a camera with as much capability as possible... for the professional market. Then we thought we could extend it down a bit to the prosumer level. Apparently, that was a mistake.
We recently came to the conclusion that, indeed, we cater to the professional market. That's it. A pro camera company. We want to build the best tools possible for those that want to "man up". There are plenty of companies dedicated to selling prosumer (short for "almost right") cameras. We aren't going to be one of them.
If you want a serious tool to use for professional projects... think RED. No more "soccer mom" thinking. Pros only. Life is short and the clock is ticking. We have decided who we are.
Jim"
Well, that is that.
snowleopard
Well-known member
I actually have nothing wrong with that note he wrote, though he really should have said it a year ago. I think people over the last several months have figured out it's going to cost $6k or so to get into Scarlet whenever it does appear, and likely $10k to have a full working model, plus extras, and maybe a lens or two. Some tried to refute it, but it seemed inevitable.
So be it.
The only thing I don't like is his saying prosumer means, short for "almost right". It's the carpenter, not the tools, and we've seen wonders done with "prosumer" gear available today. Regardless of how one wants to define it, most "prosumer" cameras have creature comforts. When you look at Scarlet, at least it's proposed specs, it doesn't have a lot of those built in. At issue now is how the masses of working stiffs (of which I qualify) who were waiting with baited breath are going to react to the fact that there will be no $3k camera, no $4k camera, and you're likely going to have to plunk down close to $10k, and often shoot with assistants and more elaborate set-ups than the run-and-gun systems most are used to, and were hoping for.
Or you'll just buy an AF100, or XF100, etc. when they appear.
So be it.
The only thing I don't like is his saying prosumer means, short for "almost right". It's the carpenter, not the tools, and we've seen wonders done with "prosumer" gear available today. Regardless of how one wants to define it, most "prosumer" cameras have creature comforts. When you look at Scarlet, at least it's proposed specs, it doesn't have a lot of those built in. At issue now is how the masses of working stiffs (of which I qualify) who were waiting with baited breath are going to react to the fact that there will be no $3k camera, no $4k camera, and you're likely going to have to plunk down close to $10k, and often shoot with assistants and more elaborate set-ups than the run-and-gun systems most are used to, and were hoping for.
Or you'll just buy an AF100, or XF100, etc. when they appear.
Michael Olsen
Veteran
Well, I don't really know if there was really ever a realistic promise of a $3K or $4K camera once enough kit was included to make the thing work. Now people are looking at a ~$5750 entry-level Fixed 2/3" Scarlet kit which would be very bare bones.
And as long as REDCODE has been in the picture, I don't think anyone mentioned anything about making the post side of things as easy as a ProRes dump (except for the rumored ProRes modules).
So...there are a lot of people with dashed hopes looking for a new camera that costs about $4K-$5K. Seems like the AF-100 is a natural choice.
snowleopard
Well-known member
I won't be surprised if they drop the fixed lens. We'll see.
Agree with all else you are saying. People with $10k are likely going to be looking hard at the AF-100. There's a lot of momentum pointing to it as being THE camera for a lot of working shooters. I can also see those who thought they could save $4k for Scarlet will now look at the Canon XF100, or continue to look at DSLRs.
Agree with all else you are saying. People with $10k are likely going to be looking hard at the AF-100. There's a lot of momentum pointing to it as being THE camera for a lot of working shooters. I can also see those who thought they could save $4k for Scarlet will now look at the Canon XF100, or continue to look at DSLRs.
David G. Smith
Steak Knife Member
Yeah, I think that there is lot wrong with Mr. Jannard's post. "We want to build the best tools possible for those that want to "man up". ... What an arrogant assh*le. So to Mr. Jannard the only filmmakers that will "man up" are those that buy gear that he thinks is "Professional". Anyone who has been on this forum for any length of time knows that there are a lot of folks out there that are risking everything they have to get gear that they really can not afford to chase their dreams, and for two years some have been lead to believe that the Red company was going to make a camera that was going to be affordable, relatively, and that the could use in their quest. NOW, Mr. Jannard has the gall to say that they have been "Slowly figuring out" who they are... and what that means is, F**k you low budget filmmaker, you have to "Man Up" to get our gear. Well, Mr. Jannard, F**k you back.
I don't even know what to say to that other than it was written after 10pm, and I can only assume what he's been doing up until that time. But he basically just told ASC Shane Hurlbut (and other DPs like him) that he hasn't "manned up" because he prefers the 5DII over Red. And I think he just basically pissed off a whole bunch of prospective customers with "almost right" cameras that they've been making money with for years.
Just too funny.
Pietro Impagliazzo
Well-known member
I followed Scarlet from quite early on in the scarletuser forum, and "soccer mon" (Whatinhell is a "soccer mom"?) was only ever a joke.
The original target market (As I recall) was film students (Hard-up) low-budget indies (Hard-up) and commited enthusiasts (Hard-up).
Now we're being told to get lost.
I feel we had a carrot dangled in front of us that slowly got further and higher away until it's been whisked away with a "Ha ha fooled ya!" post.
Back to vDSLRs, and when Canon produce their second generation vDSLR I'll bite. Until then it's a 550D and learning.
Dave
The original target market (As I recall) was film students (Hard-up) low-budget indies (Hard-up) and commited enthusiasts (Hard-up).
Now we're being told to get lost.
I feel we had a carrot dangled in front of us that slowly got further and higher away until it's been whisked away with a "Ha ha fooled ya!" post.
Back to vDSLRs, and when Canon produce their second generation vDSLR I'll bite. Until then it's a 550D and learning.
Dave
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