RED Roadmap

I don't think 1080 is not good enough. Not good for what? Maybe the standard for the industry will be 4k soon, maybe 8k, 16k and over in few years, full immersion 3d, I don't know. Nothing against entertainment, I like James Cameron work very much but the most interesting and exciting cinema today is realized above all outside the main industry with every sort of tools, SD video cameras, DSLR (the last Monte Hellman film shoot entirely with the 5d) HDV, 16mm, Phone cells, pocket cameras, even super 8 films (one of the greatest american film artists, the wonderful Stan Brakhage, has made his super8 masterpieces until his very last days, in 2003). Everything can works if you have a nice project, you don't necessarily have to rent an Epic to make your film. The real independent cinema will always be free from technology obsession and industry impositions.
 
Agreed Francesco - but I'm not going to shoot a Toyota web commercial on Super 8. They need it to look a certain way. They need it to look like 35mm film and like their normal commercials. And Toyota doesn't have the budget for film for the web so I'm going to look at the current options and narrow it right now down to the Red Epic, Red One MX, Arri Alexa, and the Sony F3 with S log. I'll price each one out for them. But I will know that the Sony F65 is going to be right up there once we see how it looks. I love the look of Super 8, Super 16, all that - but I need latitude, color space, sharpness. I need a camera that I know will work in difficult conditions and be able to give to an editor on a tight deadline and make sure I deliver a look they love. Right now I'm pretty excited about the F65. I'm excited about the Red Epic-X as well. And I'm excited that the Red Epic created the F65 and made it so cheap. Before the Red, what did we have - the Panavision Genesis, the Viper, the F23 - all very very very very expensive cameras. All out of a budget for me and my web stuff. Now I have the Sony F3 with s log which is unbelievable. And I owe it all to the Red One camera because it forced the big guys to lower their prices.

We live in such an amazing time. Thank you Jim Jannard for making Sony and Panasonic better companies. This is an example of free market enterprise and capitalism at its best!
 
I'm sure one of those Surprises is a Flux Capacitor, the other might be a hoverboard or flying car. (It's been what, 25 years?)
 
As others have said Epic-S is not dead, it will just be named something else and come out later this year after there is room on the full scale EPIC assembly line that is up and running now, and all EPIC stages are delivered. From a pure business and production assembly point of view it made no sense to design two version of the Epic to fit into two different form factors (ie. Epic and Scarlet) so Scarlet will move forward now as a 2/3 only camera and the Scarlet S35 will just become the "Epic-S" with a few less boards and slightly less features like 120fps. (So hence "Surprise #1" or "Surprise #2")

I'm in the F3 forum alot these days debating between a new F3, a used Red One MX package, or waiting for Epic-S (or whatever they call it). I'm still certain the Epic-S with its lower frame rate and possibly some other scaled back features will be in the same ball park as it costs to record F3 with SLOG offboard. When I think about the footprint alone of the two cameras, it has me leaning to RED. I could care less about 4k at this point, but again for the same price point should I go the RED route then I would have the extra resolution which would be handy for many post production situations.
 
You're right Ed. If you have to make a commercial you have to do it in a certain way.
The technology evolution is unstoppable, it's his nature and it's an amazing thing.
But I still believe we can consider every tool we have for the work we have to realize and
nothing is "not good enough". RED is a great and innovative company, no doubt about it
and I'm very interested in the forthcoming Scarlet. This camera, at the right price, could
be a very powerful tool for indie film makers.
 
eddavid said:
I'm no engineer and maybe you guys can help on this - but don't you just lose the increased resolution anyway when you shrink an image down in that your eyes can't resolve the detail unless you are like super close to your tv?
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Oversampling is very a powerful tool and is in no way "losing the resolution".

That being said...your argument seems to revolve around the "good enough" concept. Which is fine. Many people are totally fine with good enough - there plenty of folks who own SD cameras and are actively shooting SD for SD broadcast.

There are also other people who believe that SD and HD isn't good enough. Which, compared to film, it technically isn't. It just doesn't have the spatial resolution to match film. Latitude and color information may or may not be there. But 1080p is 1080p is 1080p. And it just isn't equal to film. So these people are pushing for something which provides the latitude, color, feel, and spatial resolution of film.

And there are people who are just innovators. They don't care if film measures out at 3K or 4K or 6K. And they don't care if S35 is the standard. They think it would be really cool to be able to shoot landscape or architectural shots on a 647 sensor at 28K. Sure - there may only be 30 other people in the world who would want that camera. But they want to build it anyway, just so it exists and so they can use it.

So that's just it to me...if you are shooting for a festival that presents at 1080p do you need to drop $55,000 or $85,000 on a 4K camera? No. As you said, you could shoot it at 720p (that's more what most 1080p cameras resolve anyway...) or even DV. But don't be surprised if someone who shot on 4K ends up displaying a more detailed, richer looking image, even through the same 1080p projector. Because that's what 4K does.
 
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I want them to finish the Epic First, and make it nice and stable before worrying about other cameras.


FWIW
The most amazing thing ive ever seen was F65 Footage being projected in 4K in the Sony Theatre at NAB. Absolutely, and without question the best digital image i've ever seen, ever.
 
TimurCivan said:
I want them to finish the Epic First, and make it nice and stable before worrying about other cameras.
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I agree with this. I'd like to see the EPIC finished up (as much as digital cinema cameras are ever finished now that they are just computers with lenses). And then I'd like to see their other cameras launch at a similar stage of completion.

And for what it's worth, RED and many of their supports have open 4K screenings. Just call them, set up a time, and drop by. People are so excited about the technology, they just want others to be able to see it with their own eyes so they can understand. OFFHOLLYWOOD is in NY...you may want to give them a ring and see if you could drop in for a demo.
 
I'd like to have playback on my Epic...I never thought I'd miss it as much as I do. Popping the SSD out and into a laptop just to review before moving on significantly slows down the day. All the other options are just too costly at this point, since it'll only be temporary.

Kegan
 
AtticusLake said:
But it's not... Super 16 is 12.52mm by 7.41mm, which is a 14.55mm diagonal; "two thirds" is 8.8mm by 6.6mm, which is an 11mm diagonal. (Sensor sizes given in inches are based on about 18mm to the inch. Someone needs to be sued for that.)

So 2/3 is only 76% of Super 16.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image_sensor_format#Table_of_sensor_sizes
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2/3" HD format frame size is 9.6mm x 5.4mm.
Scarlet's sensor is 10.1 x 5.35mm in native 1.89:1 2k cinema widescreen format. Both still fall within 11mm image circle. Scarlet fixed will remain with this format, but there is some question about what is happening with the interchangeable lens version. If Red chose to do so, they could fit a QHD format sensor, 3840x2160, into a true Super 16mm sized sensor based on the same 3.3u pixel size as the 2/3" version. That would be a sweet upgrade to me.
 
It is good to see how people thinking change when something new comes along. Not so long ago we would all hear, hey it is raw, if someone tried to compare cameras like the F3 to their beloved brand. Signaling that the increase in data was worth it. Now uncompressed true RAW is too much when somebody else comes along with a camera. It is going to be insane, but it was foolish for the poor guys before that where saying that the compressed raw was too much for them. More so that now they can content them-self to the compressed version that for them now is ..... good enough. Same for true 4k than from bayer one.

I am all for innovation and what RED brought to the market in terms of competition and technology etc. Today the most affordable Indie camera is the F3, tech we would never have hopped to have less than a year ago if it was not for the competition between the different manufacturers. I hope red comes with an Epic-S at a very competitive price that can put pressure on the F3. It would force Sony to give the Slog as an integral part of the camera. We could even see the Chinese with their 2k raw camera etc. I am all for competition once it serves the customers and brand loyalty and fanaticism serves the opposite. For me I have seen films shot on the Alexa and never ever I have thought that it looked bad or anything. It was more a case of the lighting, acting etc. I have just one hope that someday the art of film making will be truly affordable, that it won't be the tools that will limit the imagination and that it will be the creativity that will be prevail. I don't know what art form entry point is so high. The days are coming with the dslr etc. A new generation is growing up with these tool in their hand and we will see more and more true creativity come through.
 
Kegan said:
I'd like to have playback on my Epic...I never thought I'd miss it as much as I do. Popping the SSD out and into a laptop just to review before moving on significantly slows down the day. All the other options are just too costly at this point, since it'll only be temporary.

Kegan
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I'm sorry but that is just unacceptable in a production camera. Especially at that price point.
 
I can live without sound - we always run sound to a separate recorder anyway. The playback is killing me. Ah well, hopefully since the EPIC-X's have started shipping, they'll get a nice, solid firmware build soon..

Kegan
 
Kegan said:
I can live without sound - we always run sound to a separate recorder anyway. The playback is killing me. Ah well, hopefully since the EPIC-X's have started shipping, they'll get a nice, solid firmware build soon..Kegan
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Thanks for the overview of the Epic today. it was nice to finally meet you. Bob
 
There is a lot of misinformation going around about resolution and imager quality. You can in theory shoot 4k with the dvx100 in the same way you shoot 4k with the red one. In post , with your dvx100 footage - you can enlarge it and output at 4k. Will it look good? Probably not. The imager to me is all that matters - not the final size of the image. I don't want 8K size if there are compromises and tricks like the Red One does to get there. Again I am not an engineer and I don't know much about photosites and I definiately do not know the specs on the imager on the Epic, but the money on a camera should be spent on the imager - on how it captures light.

Now with the F65, we finally have a mechanical shutter, which addresses the biggest concern I have with the red one - that the motion doesn't quite feel like film to me. This is where the F65 will prove more interesting, possibly moreso than even the Arri Alexa if the workflow is fairly simple, the files sizes are managable, and it has the colorspace of the Alexa.
 
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