FS7: Red Raven and FS7
- Thread starter Gene Sung
- Start date
Ben Scott
Veteran
I think unless it was used, you'd be crazy to buy one if you are not already invested in it because the accessories won't be compatible with the new DSMC2 shape.
That said they are different camera with different selling points. SD had 6k at 12fps for stills and 5k at 24fps.
I am super interested in Scarlet Weapon down the line.
That said they are different camera with different selling points. SD had 6k at 12fps for stills and 5k at 24fps.
I am super interested in Scarlet Weapon down the line.
Andrew Stone
Veteran
Use a courier that will not shift it to Canada Post when it crosses the border and clear it yourself. Bring two copies of the invoice for the clearing process and know the place of manufacture. Never had an issue in the 100s of times I have cleared stuff across the border.
EDIT:
My experience with Able Cine has been great, really great customer service and product knowledge. Cost of shipping ot Canada is higher than many and you have to be very specific with the paperwork required and should ask to have the material emailed to you including invoices.
Having stuff shipped to a letter carrier State side saves a lot of grief, as YOU get to do the clearing when you cross the border through the commercial lane (where the semi-trucks go).
With UPS and FedEx when an item is coming in they will phone to ask if you have a broker, just say you will self-clear it and get the address of where to go. Presumably, it will be near the airport. They will give you the paperwork when you go there and ask them where the Canadian Border Services place is near the airport to clear the item, you will take the paperwork there and then do the Canada Customs Clearing Form on their archaic computer system and then hand it in to the Customs people there, they will examine it and then approve it and finally you will pay the GST on said good(s). Then go back to the courier building and pickup your stuff. A bit of work but can often be worth the effort and it is a good exercise to do so when you really need to do it, you know the ropes.
Last edited:
Surf it Mike
Well-known member
I reckon Scarlet Mx in the right hands is a great buy, shoots 4K raw without all the crap as listed in this thread about the F7 and now going for less a getting cheaper buy the day.
Last edited:
Surf it Mike
Well-known member
I don't know used Mk1 DSMC stuff is getting dirt cheap & will be getting cheaper. ......so not a bad way to outfit a setup for small dollars.
I reckon you could get a ready to shoot kit for around 3 - 4k, if done shrewdly .
I reckon you could get a ready to shoot kit for around 3 - 4k, if done shrewdly .
JackCarter
Well-known member
I've just been reading some info on Roger Deakins, he doesn't like RED cameras. I was trying to find out what filters he used on Skyfall but from reading some bits, apparently he doesn't like to use filters either.
Big Roger on Red Epic
''Again, to talk of 5K resolution is somewhat misleading. Even if the camera were a true 5K and a true 2000 ASA that does not negate the reason why a cinematographer uses super speed lenses any more than it negates a use for artificial light. The speed of a stock, chip or a lens may be advantageous but it is not the be all and end all of a cinematographer’s craft. A lens that can open to an aperture of 1.4 and provide a sharp image at that aperture will, most often, provide an even higher degree of image resolution at 2.0 and higher again at 2.8. The fact that a lens will open to a 1.4 does not necessarily mean that the cinematographer will use it wide open although doing so may produce a ‘look’ that suits a particular shot, scene or film.
I get very confused and, frankly, irritated by all the pronouncements about ‘K’, bit depth, latitude etc.. In the past it was often stated to me by visual effects supervisors that there was no noticeable difference between a 2K scan and a 4K scan of the same negative. Does film really have a dynamic range of more than 13 stops? What film stock would that be and under what conditions? I don’t see it. In the final analysis you can only judge picture quality by eye and make a personal decision as to what you like and what you don’t like. Perhaps some people really can not see a difference between a 2K scan and a 4K scan of the same negative and I am sure some people really do prefer the look of an image produced by the Red Camera to one shot on film. The choice of a camera system is no different than the choice of a lens set, a camera position or where to put a lamp.''
On Red vs Alexa
''There has been a lot of ‘banter’ about the two camera systems and sometimes it becomes quite partisan. Much of what I read is not the same as the information I am being given by experienced camera technicians in whom I have absolute trust.
I am told that the Red and Alexa have exactly the same sensor but each uses it to gather data in a different way. The Red team has biased their camera for optimum resolution by using an array of smaller pixels, whereas Arri has biased their camera towards optimum colour depth and latitude through a use of slightly larger ‘more sensitive’ pixels. Apparently, it is not possible to do both at this time and with this same sensor.
From the images I have seen I believe that the Alexa does indeed have better colour rendition and greater image detail in the highlights and shadows. On the other hand I wouldn’t say the image it produces appears any less sharp than that of the Red even though it does in theory deliver an image with less resolution. The falloff from a highlight into a shadow area would seem superior to me.
I am not experienced with the Red at all so I only say this in respect of the films I have seen that were shot on that camera. I have seen the Red viewfinder and I wouldn’t say it was any better than the electronic viewfinder on the Alexa. Neither is a substitute for an optical finder. As for as the camera system itself, I would say that the Alexa is a better design. It looks and feels like a film camera but one that is both simple to use and lightweight. For me, there did not seem a large learning curve from using a 535B to using the Alexa.
I have been a user of Arri cameras all my career so I must also admit to being somewhat partisan. However, I have now been shooting with the Alexa for some months and I have only been impressed by the camera’s capabilities.
I’m sure I will be shot down for writing this post. I am not a technical person and I, frankly, don’t understand the technology as well as most of the people who post on this site. In the same way that some cameramen prefer Panavision to Arri cameras or Fuji to Kodak emulsion, some will prefer the Red over the Alexa. That’s not the same as saying one is actually ‘better’ than another. However, I do know what my eye tells me.''
On digital vs Film
''A digital camera does not light the shot any more than it can tell you where to put the camera or how to frame the image. And the idea that a shot can be ‘fixed’ in post is absurd.Now, it is possible to do a lot in CG, almost anything, if you have the time and money. The image can be completely replaced and formed anew just as if it were motion capture material for an animated film. But this is all quite different from supposing that the Red Camera or the Alexa can shoot the film for you. Perhaps I am old fashioned but I still believe that shooting a film which resonates with the viewer requires a human component!
Greg Toland was a master at manipulation of the image using glass shots, split screen etc. etc. but imagine what he might have done with digital tools! The question whether digital is ‘better’ than film is not of primary importance and, besides that, I believe it to have been answered. What is important now is to discuss how these new tools can be used to make more interesting and visually stimulating ‘films’.
As to film’s ‘unique look’. I believe that to be bogus too. I am certain that it is entirely possible to manipulate an image captured by the Alexa that would pass as one taken from a film negative. All that is required is some slight defocusing, a constriction of the colour space and the addition of digital grain. By suggesting that the ‘unique look’ of film owes more to the properties of film emulsion than to the cinematographers who created the imagery does a great disservice.''
Big Roger on Red Epic
''Again, to talk of 5K resolution is somewhat misleading. Even if the camera were a true 5K and a true 2000 ASA that does not negate the reason why a cinematographer uses super speed lenses any more than it negates a use for artificial light. The speed of a stock, chip or a lens may be advantageous but it is not the be all and end all of a cinematographer’s craft. A lens that can open to an aperture of 1.4 and provide a sharp image at that aperture will, most often, provide an even higher degree of image resolution at 2.0 and higher again at 2.8. The fact that a lens will open to a 1.4 does not necessarily mean that the cinematographer will use it wide open although doing so may produce a ‘look’ that suits a particular shot, scene or film.
I get very confused and, frankly, irritated by all the pronouncements about ‘K’, bit depth, latitude etc.. In the past it was often stated to me by visual effects supervisors that there was no noticeable difference between a 2K scan and a 4K scan of the same negative. Does film really have a dynamic range of more than 13 stops? What film stock would that be and under what conditions? I don’t see it. In the final analysis you can only judge picture quality by eye and make a personal decision as to what you like and what you don’t like. Perhaps some people really can not see a difference between a 2K scan and a 4K scan of the same negative and I am sure some people really do prefer the look of an image produced by the Red Camera to one shot on film. The choice of a camera system is no different than the choice of a lens set, a camera position or where to put a lamp.''
On Red vs Alexa
''There has been a lot of ‘banter’ about the two camera systems and sometimes it becomes quite partisan. Much of what I read is not the same as the information I am being given by experienced camera technicians in whom I have absolute trust.
I am told that the Red and Alexa have exactly the same sensor but each uses it to gather data in a different way. The Red team has biased their camera for optimum resolution by using an array of smaller pixels, whereas Arri has biased their camera towards optimum colour depth and latitude through a use of slightly larger ‘more sensitive’ pixels. Apparently, it is not possible to do both at this time and with this same sensor.
From the images I have seen I believe that the Alexa does indeed have better colour rendition and greater image detail in the highlights and shadows. On the other hand I wouldn’t say the image it produces appears any less sharp than that of the Red even though it does in theory deliver an image with less resolution. The falloff from a highlight into a shadow area would seem superior to me.
I am not experienced with the Red at all so I only say this in respect of the films I have seen that were shot on that camera. I have seen the Red viewfinder and I wouldn’t say it was any better than the electronic viewfinder on the Alexa. Neither is a substitute for an optical finder. As for as the camera system itself, I would say that the Alexa is a better design. It looks and feels like a film camera but one that is both simple to use and lightweight. For me, there did not seem a large learning curve from using a 535B to using the Alexa.
I have been a user of Arri cameras all my career so I must also admit to being somewhat partisan. However, I have now been shooting with the Alexa for some months and I have only been impressed by the camera’s capabilities.
I’m sure I will be shot down for writing this post. I am not a technical person and I, frankly, don’t understand the technology as well as most of the people who post on this site. In the same way that some cameramen prefer Panavision to Arri cameras or Fuji to Kodak emulsion, some will prefer the Red over the Alexa. That’s not the same as saying one is actually ‘better’ than another. However, I do know what my eye tells me.''
On digital vs Film
''A digital camera does not light the shot any more than it can tell you where to put the camera or how to frame the image. And the idea that a shot can be ‘fixed’ in post is absurd.Now, it is possible to do a lot in CG, almost anything, if you have the time and money. The image can be completely replaced and formed anew just as if it were motion capture material for an animated film. But this is all quite different from supposing that the Red Camera or the Alexa can shoot the film for you. Perhaps I am old fashioned but I still believe that shooting a film which resonates with the viewer requires a human component!
Greg Toland was a master at manipulation of the image using glass shots, split screen etc. etc. but imagine what he might have done with digital tools! The question whether digital is ‘better’ than film is not of primary importance and, besides that, I believe it to have been answered. What is important now is to discuss how these new tools can be used to make more interesting and visually stimulating ‘films’.
As to film’s ‘unique look’. I believe that to be bogus too. I am certain that it is entirely possible to manipulate an image captured by the Alexa that would pass as one taken from a film negative. All that is required is some slight defocusing, a constriction of the colour space and the addition of digital grain. By suggesting that the ‘unique look’ of film owes more to the properties of film emulsion than to the cinematographers who created the imagery does a great disservice.''
morgan_moore
Major Contributor
The only thing worse than Red is green
Surf it Mike
Well-known member
So JackCarter are you buying or do you own an Alexa ?
Given you've posted this in a F7 , Raven thread, not sure why RDs well known dislike of Red and his love of Alexa is even relevant here ?
Given you've posted this in a F7 , Raven thread, not sure why RDs well known dislike of Red and his love of Alexa is even relevant here ?
JackCarter
Well-known member
No I don't own an ARRI. I thought Ben might find this interesting as he's interested in British Cinematographers.
Well known to who? I didn't know that Roger Deakins has a dislike for RED cameras until I read about it tonight. Raven is a RED camera is it not? Instead of attacking me, why don't you read what Roger Deakins ASC / BSC wrote and perhaps comment or debate. Is he right or wrong?
The only thing worse than green is red.
Surf it Mike
Well-known member
Mate no one questioning Alexa domination of the high end cinema market and I'm not going to argue with Deakins.
What I'm questioning and have every right too is why has this been posted in a sub 10k camera thread ?
The only conclusion that can be drawn from this post is that Red cameras are not for you but Arri is.
P.s @ Ben prices are dropping quick seen Brain's with side mount & EOS mount for around that.
What I'm questioning and have every right too is why has this been posted in a sub 10k camera thread ?
The only conclusion that can be drawn from this post is that Red cameras are not for you but Arri is.
P.s @ Ben prices are dropping quick seen Brain's with side mount & EOS mount for around that.
Last edited:
Ben Scott
Veteran
So what? That stuff is ancient.
Roger likes to operate the camera as well and so he prefers a system as close to operating the film cameras he knows like the back of his hand and like many he loves the 'Vision 3' nature of the Alexa capture.
Shooting on a Red can be a lot closer to using a computer with a lens mount and so far less intuitive to a lot of people but that doesn't mean there is something about it that makes it intrinsically hard to get amazing results from it.
Fincher, Scott, Soderbergh as directors - Cronenweth, Wolski,Trent Opaloch as DPs... I mean there's a fair few people who like that more post-involved tech savvy workflow that get decent enough results out of them.
And as for that last sentence, I completely agree with it, but then at the same time he 's just been shooting on film again hasn't he?
Ben Scott
Veteran
Plus media and touchscreen and a battery solution?
Surf it Mike
Well-known member
Yeh I know but you can mix'n'match a kit pretty easy from used red DSMC components & you would still be under 5k . The only thing that still is holding value is 5 inch touch screens , but even they are starting to come down now with the mark 11 version ( and you don't necessarily need to shoot ) Power solutions are pretty cheap, 2nd hand v mount backs etc. 64 gb SSD can be had now for around $300.
So it is possible if you are hungry for workable 4k solution and you had 4k deliverables ( which Arri presently can't do despite up scaling ) and still be way under new F7 price.
But having said that I would never use a MX DSMC for run & gun that's where the F7 seems to excel in.
So it is possible if you are hungry for workable 4k solution and you had 4k deliverables ( which Arri presently can't do despite up scaling ) and still be way under new F7 price.
But having said that I would never use a MX DSMC for run & gun that's where the F7 seems to excel in.
So much Red hate.
Not saying Red has the best cameras as I do really like the Alexa look (but don't have the cash), but the more I deal with Red, the more I really like them as a company. You have any question, you email or call and they get right on it. The CEO and their lead Rep are both on the forums and answer a ton of questions and take suggestions.
People bitched about the crop factor on the Raven so they made it 4.5K (from 4K) to lessen the crop, people ***** about the upgrade price and they give a $5,000 accessories credit that lasted for 7 months, last week they had user vote on saving $5,000 cash vs. using some expensive Magnesium swapped for Aluminum. Of course everyone voted to save $5000. Then people bitched about the $5K credit going away, so they bring it back for 3 days to help everyone out.
What started out as a $19,000 upgrade to Weapon was essentially reduced to $10,000 this week because they listen to their customers. Ask Canon, Sony or Arri to reduce their camera prices? Won't happen.
Yeah, the skulls and military stuff is not my cup of tea, but in terms of customer service, they are top notch.