FS7: Red Raven and FS7

[Ben Scott]

+1 i want to see stuff first. same with ursa or anything else that pops up in the meantime.

cheers
Paul

Basically I just want to rinse my FS7 before selling it while it still has some value and in the meantime move more exclusively onto the type of controlled projects that will sing with Red.

By the way I emailed you

 

[Ben Scott]

netflix won't allow arri because it is not 4K.....FS7 is actually netflix approved....
nobody looking at the C300 mk2 will change their mind because of this announcement. the raven can't do what the canon does....
raven does go head to head with ursa mini 4.6 and we don't know how that one will actually turn out....there is a reason this was announced now and red wants your money now.....before the ursa mini 4.6 is shipping....
because for people like you, looking for a more cinematic look, maybe a more deliberate workflow with raw and the slower more demanding post workflow the ursa mini 4.6 will be RED's biggest competitor.....that and kinefinity (just kidding)

With the greatest respect everything you're saying is just guessing and the Canon reportedly has all sorts of issues, making those decisions perhaps less cut and dried that we originally thought ..

There isn't another raw codec except perhaps arriraw that is as mature and workable as Redcode. I've no idea why you think it is slower to work with. You can cut it natively if you like and grade it as per normal.

As for the rest I don't believe there is such a thing as a more 'cinematic' camera. It's a nonsense and that word has no clear definition that doesn't include art direction, lighting and set design.

And just to go back to that Netflix 4k thing - Of course that is the reason. If not for Red, Sony, Canon and Arri would still be screaming that 1080p is as much as the humasn eye can see

Absolutely fine to hate their cameras and the company, but give them the credit where its due on 4k.

 

[Liam Hall]

So, to summarise...

Red Raven is an incredible camera if it fits your shooting style and client base. If it doesn't, there are many, many, many options available now and even more in six months.

I'm looking for a decent B cam at the moment and I hovered over the 'deposit' button, but didn't bite as there are probably better options for my needs available right now. Still, I think RED will ship a lot of these little cams and I still might pick one up next year.

 

[Ben Scott]

Yeah pretty much. I've been first with Scalret-MX and first with FS7. I'll let someone else beta test for me this time

 

[LeoGrey]

not bitter at all, just realistic....

nofilmschool has it right when they say this is not an inexpensive camera....
also: red is the only company that will actually take you money NOW to lock you in for the next 6 months....

I agree their media is astronomically overpriced, but so are the oem tires on my truck. It sucks, and I want to go for the cheaper options but all the reviews/mechanics say the same thing, pay now or pay later.

I personally do zero ENG work that requires a fast turn around. There is a fair amount of run'n gun but most of the work is done before my feet touch the plane. There is much to be said of the ergonomics/ease of use that Canon/Sony provides, which is why I would caution current users that are thinking of going RED, to think about the workflow/patience involved with shooting that type of camera. It is a great luxury to have the low light performance/battery life/thin codec but some of us do not need it. I'm sure this varies from person to person, but my foremost concern is image quality and RED provides a no-compromise solution(except for cost) that is proven & bulletproof.

Hearing the $6k price tag I knew this was going to be a $15k investment, so no surprise there. But I don't see much below $25k that can compete. Maybe a c500/O7Q can crank out that kind of resolution/quality(not 120p) but its cumbersome & japanese raw is an absolute nightmare.

Before the blackmagic fans come crawling out from everywhere, I don't consider blackmagic a professional solution and would happily pay more for guaranteed support/service/quality. Maybe over the next couple of years they will reinforce their support/service divisions, but right now I feel their not there yet.

There will be more options, and hopefully now that redcode can be found in a $6k body with a Dragon sensor it will have an impact on the next r&d meeting that sony/panasonic/canon have. Maybe this is the straw that breaks the camels back and pushes better codecs/fps/ergonomics into the lower end from the big 3. I would be first in-line for a smaller varicam

 

[Ben Scott]

My thought is to not look a the price of individual components but rather the shooting package as a whole. Some things a lot less and some things a lot more than you feel they should be.

I still resent the price of a Sony 128Gb XQD card.

 

[Paul schefz]

With the greatest respect everything you're saying is just guessing and the Canon reportedly has all sorts of issues, making those decisions perhaps less cut and dried that we originally thought ..

There isn't another raw codec except perhaps arriraw that is as mature and workable as Redcode. I've no idea why you think it is slower to work with. You can cut it natively if you like and grade it as per normal.

As for the rest I don't believe there is such a thing as a more 'cinematic' camera. It's a nonsense and that word has no clear definition that doesn't include art direction, lighting and set design.

And just to go back to that Netflix 4k thing - Of course that is the reason. If not for Red, Sony, Canon and Arri would still be screaming that 1080p is as much as the humasn eye can see

Absolutely fine to hate their cameras and the company, but give them the credit where its due on 4k.

completely agree with the cinematic look, i find that glass and filtration makes a bigger difference in terms of look then cameras (with comparable specs)...
i can tell you that netflix, sony and 4K are very very friendly and sony is the one pushing 4K more then anyone.....of course, they want to sell TVs
i don't hate red at all....i never liked their design and seemingly strange company culture but that did not stop me from dropping a LOT of money on their products because at the time they were the best thing available.......i think the weapon (hopefully) might be what dragon should have been....it better be because i don't see raven mopping up the bottom or the mid range of the market and hollywood and the top end really, really likes arri.....for a good reason....and arri isn't sleeping.....red has made a dent in arris business but sony still has a large chunk.....for people to abandon arri, red would have to be SOOOO much better and that just isn't going to happen...because its not possible.....the difference is IQ is so small now and shooting a feature on iPhone gets you much needed free publicity.....which is so much more important (and expensive to compete with) then any arri or dragon or weapon....

the biggest news today is not raven but how many professional reporters, journalists, DPs, photographers,....left their gear at home and shot their latest docu, report, assignment in 4K on the new iPhone 6s.....

 

[Paul schefz]

My thought is to not look a the price of individual components but rather the shooting package as a whole. Some things a lot less and some things a lot more than you feel they should be.

I still resent the price of a Sony 128Gb XQD card.

it is a fraction of the size and still has higher transfer rates then red mini mag
and let's compare the price in spring/summer 2016 when raven ships....

 

[Ben Scott]

The fact is 4k 3:1 at 24fps on a Dragon sensor means that is instant indie movie gold right there...

Pretty sure Sundance will see a lot of Raven films.

 

[Ben Scott]

it is a fraction of the size and still has higher transfer rates then red mini mag
and let's compare the price in spring/summer 2016 when raven ships....

I've had XQD cards fail. Never lost a clip on a redmag. But yeah, they're both bloody pricey for what they are.

 

[Harry Lime]

Some more details

http://www.newsshooter.com/2015/09/...-redcode-raw-and-prores-recording-for-5950us/


For the record I've never seen anyone able to produce a test with a Dragon sensor clocking in at more than 13.5 14 stops.



RED RAVEN™
[TABLE="class: specs, width: 100%"]
[TR="bgcolor: #888888"]
[TD]SENSOR[/TD]
[TD="class: right, bgcolor: #CCCCCC"]8.8 Megapixel RED DRAGON®[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="bgcolor: #AAAAAA"]
[TD]PIXEL ARRAY[/TD]
[TD="class: right, bgcolor: #CCCCCC"]4096 (h) x 2160 (v)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="bgcolor: #888888"]
[TD]MAX IMAGE AREA[/TD]
[TD="class: right, bgcolor: #CCCCCC"]4096 (h) x 2160 (v)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="bgcolor: #AAAAAA"]
[TD]SENSOR SIZE[/TD]
[TD="class: right, bgcolor: #CCCCCC"]20.48 mm (h) x 10.8 mm (v) x 23.2 mm (d)
(Approximately equivalent to APS-C and Academy 35mm formats)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="bgcolor: #888888"]
[TD]DYNAMIC RANGE[/TD]
[TD="class: right, bgcolor: #CCCCCC"]16.5+ stops[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="bgcolor: #AAAAAA"]
[TD]S/N RATIO[/TD]
[TD="class: right, bgcolor: #CCCCCC"]80 dB[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="bgcolor: #888888"]
[TD]RECORDING FRAME RATES 1[/TD]
[TD="class: right, bgcolor: #CCCCCC"]4K (4096 × 2160) up to 120 fps
3K (3072 × 1620) up to 160 fps
2K (2048 × 1080) up to 240 fps[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="bgcolor: #AAAAAA"]
[TD]PLAYBACK FRAME RATES
(PROJECT TIMEBASE)[/TD]
[TD="class: right, bgcolor: #CCCCCC"]23.98, 24, 25, 29.97, 47.96, 48, 50, 59.94 fps, all resolutions[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="bgcolor: #888888"]
[TD]REDCODE® COMPRESSION 1[/TD]
[TD="class: right, bgcolor: #CCCCCC"]3:1 maximum available REDCODE for 4K (4096 × 2160) at 24 fps
7:1 maximum available REDCODE for 4K (4096 × 2160) at 60 fps
13:1 maximum available REDCODE for 4K (4096 × 2160) at 120 fps[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="bgcolor: #AAAAAA"]
[TD]TYPICAL MAX RECORDING TIME
USING RED MINI-MAG 120GB[/TD]
[TD="class: right, bgcolor: #CCCCCC"]4K (4096 × 2160) and 24 fps at 11:1 REDCODE: 64 minutes
4K (4096 × 2160) and 60 fps at 14:1 REDCODE: 33 minutes
4K (4096 × 2160) and 120 fps at 14:1 REDCODE: 16 minutes [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="bgcolor: #888888"]
[TD]REDCODE RAW
ACQUISITION FORMATS[/TD]
[TD="class: right, bgcolor: #CCCCCC"]4K (4096 × 2160), 2:1 (4096 × 2048), 2.4:1 (4096 × 1728), UHD/16:9 (3840 × 2160)
3K (3072 × 1620), 2:1 (3072 × 1536), 2.4:1 (3072 × 1296), 16:9 (2880 × 1620), 3:2 (2880 × 1920)
2K (2048 × 1080), 2:1 (2048 × 1024), 2.4:1 (2048 × 864), 16:9 (1920 × 1080), 3:2 (1920 × 1280)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="bgcolor: #AAAAAA"]
[TD]APPLE PRORES[/TD]
[TD="class: right, bgcolor: #CCCCCC"]Apple ProRes 422 HQ up to 2K (2048 × 1080) and up to 60 fps
Apple ProRes 422 up to 2K (2048 × 1080) and up to 60 fps
Apple ProRes 422 LT up to 2K (2048 × 1080) and up to 60 fps[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="bgcolor: #888888"]
[TD]REDCINE-X PRO
DELIVERY FORMATS 2[/TD]
[TD="class: right, bgcolor: #CCCCCC"]4K: DPX, TIFF, OpenEXR (.RED via RRencode Pluggin)
2K: DPX, TIFF, OpenEXR (.RED via RRencode Pluggin)
1080p RGB 4:2:2, 720p 4:2:2 : QuickTime, JPEG, Avid AAF, MXF
1080p 4.2.0, 720p 4:2:0 : H.264, .MP4[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="bgcolor: #AAAAAA"]
[TD]VIDEO EDITING SOFTWARE
COMPATIBILITY[/TD]
[TD="class: right, bgcolor: #CCCCCC"]Adobe® Premier® Pro, Avid® Media Composer®, DaVinci Resolve®, Edius Pro®, Final Cut Pro®, Vegas Pro®[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="bgcolor: #888888"]
[TD]MONITOR OUTPUTS[/TD]
[TD="class: right, bgcolor: #CCCCCC"]3G-SDI (HD-SDI) and HDMI with Expander Modules
1080p RGB or 4:2:2, 720p RGB or 4:2:2
480p RGB or 4:2:2 (HDMI Only)
SMPTE Timecode, HANC Metadata, 24-bit 48 kHz Audio[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="bgcolor: #AAAAAA"]
[TD]MONITOR OPTIONS[/TD]
[TD="class: right, bgcolor: #CCCCCC"]DSMC2 RED Touch 4.7" LCD
DSMC2 RED Touch 7.0" LCD
DSMC2 RED EVF (OLED)
RED Touch 7.0" LCD
RED PRO 7" LCD
BOMB EVF (LCOS)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="bgcolor: #888888"]
[TD]DIGITAL MEDIA (SSD)[/TD]
[TD="class: right, bgcolor: #CCCCCC"]RED MINI-MAG®, 140 MB/s max data rate[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="bgcolor: #AAAAAA"]
[TD]AUDIO[/TD]
[TD="class: right, bgcolor: #CCCCCC"]Integrated dual channel digital stereo microphones, uncompressed, 24-bit 48 kHz
Optional 2 additional channels with Expander Module, uncompressed, 24-bit 48 kHz[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="bgcolor: #888888"]
[TD]REMOTE CONTROL[/TD]
[TD="class: right, bgcolor: #CCCCCC"]Built-in Wireless
Ethernet, RS232, and GPI Trigger with Expander Modules.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="bgcolor: #AAAAAA"]
[TD]CONSTRUCTION[/TD]
[TD="class: right, bgcolor: #CCCCCC"]Aluminum Alloy[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="bgcolor: #888888"]
[TD]WEIGHT[/TD]
[TD="class: right, bgcolor: #CCCCCC"]~3.5 lbs (BRAIN with Media Bay and Canon Lens Mount)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="bgcolor: #AAAAAA"]
[TD]OPERATING TEMPERATURE[/TD]
[TD="class: right, bgcolor: #CCCCCC"]0°C to 40°C (32°F to 104°F)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="bgcolor: #888888"]
[TD]STORAGE TEMPERATURE[/TD]
[TD="class: right, bgcolor: #CCCCCC"]–20°C to 50°C (–4°F to 122°F)[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

Tech specs reflect both current and projected information. Everything is subject to change.​

1. REDCODE values and max frame rates may vary based on selected acquisition format/aspect ratio.
2. Delivery formats from REDCINE-X PRO®.

 

[Ben Scott]

And for the record how have you measured that?

 

[LeoGrey]

For the record I've never seen anyone able to produce a test with a Dragon sensor clocking in at more than 13.5 14 stops.

and the rest of the world has never seen an a7s with 15 stops, a c300 with 13, an fs7 with 14 and a c300 mk ii with 15.. I think we can all agree that regardless of any test, the dragon sensor is hands down in a class all by itself.

 

[Harry Lime]

And for the record how have you measured that?

Have you? Please show me your exposure wedge of Dragon footage that shows 16.5 stops.



If you want to see some exposure tests go to CML.

http://www.cinematography.net/edited-pages/compare.htm

 

[Ben Scott]

You're the one who is saying you've been measuring DR from tests. What's your methodology? How did the FS7 stack up in your tests?

 

[Harry Lime]

You're the one who is saying you've been measuring DR from tests. What's your methodology? How did the FS7 stack up in your tests?

No, that's not what I said.

I said:

"For the record I've never seen anyone able to produce a test with a Dragon sensor clocking in at more than 13.5 14 stops."

Keyword here is 'anyone'.


At my day job I have worked with Dragon footage and while it is far better than the output from the Epic I have never seen 16.5 stops out of it.

Every DOP I have ever spoken to here in LA who has shot Dragon says its more like 14 stops. That is a respectable figure, so I really do not see the need to exaggerate.

My personal camera is a Sony F3L. On a scope it clocks in at 13-13.5 stops in uncompressed 10bit RGB 444 slog / rec709. The sensor is very clean so it's not turning in to noise and that is useable range.

So, have you tested a Dragon at 16.5 stops and can you provide a link to that test or are you quoting the RED data sheet?

 

[Ben Scott]

The point is final numbers and marketing blurb aside, even DXOmark lists the Dragon sensor as being the highest performing one in their testing history so it seems somewhat specious to try and knock the Dragon sensor when there's nothing else in its ballpark for motion.

Plenty of reasons why the Raven might not suit the way you work or what you look for in an image, but to criticise the sensor in it...

 

[Harry Lime]

The point is final numbers and market blurb aside, even DXOmark lists the Dragon sensor as being the highest performing one in their testing history so it seems somewhat specious to try and knock the Dragon sensor when there's nothing else in its ballpark for motion.

Sure.

 

[Bill Gilbride]

I'm gonna wait on the Red Lintsone, (pause) In a world where the letter "F" has been cleansed from our vocabulary.

 

[Paul schefz]

The point is final numbers and marketing blurb aside, even DXOmark lists the Dragon sensor as being the highest performing one in their testing history so it seems somewhat specious to try and knock the Dragon sensor when there's nothing else in its ballpark for motion.

Plenty of reasons why the Raven might not suit the way you work or what you look for in an image, but to criticise the sensor in it...

the DXO test lists the DR as 14.8 which is higher then any other test out there by about a stop.....but the real head scratcher is that they rate it iso 2500? and this with the original (now i believe skin tone?) OLPF.....even on red user the most diehard fans agree that that is just a phantasy....
have you ever actually shot or played with dragon footage? or compared it with MX? there is no question it is a better sensor all around (DR, color) but you might be surprised.....