FS7: Red Raven and FS7

I'm very surprised Paul gets higher DR out of the FS7 than the Dragon. I think both Epic and Dragon images are far better in every way, but Iso, than the FS7.
I have shot a lot of hours with my FS7 since January and not once have I felt I got a better image than I would have with my RED. I even shot a tvc on the FS7 and never have I missed my RED more.

The FS7 is great for what it is, but if Raven has a good xlr solution that's not too expensive I would love to swap my fs7 for a Raven on lots of jobs (but not all, the FS7 had its place)

edit: I see I wrote this post at the same time as Paul. And seems he was mostly talking about the Scarlet
 
Yoak said:
I'm very surprised Paul gets higher DR out of the FS7 than the Dragon. I think both Epic and Dragon images are far better in every way, but Iso, than the FS7.
I have shot a lot of hours with my FS7 since January and not once have I felt I got a better image than I would have with my RED. I even shot a tvc on the FS7 and never have I missed my RED more.

The FS7 is great for what it is, but if Raven has a good xlr solution that's not too expensive I would love to swap my fs7 for a Raven on lots of jobs (but not all, the FS7 had its place)

edit: I see I wrote this post at the same time as Paul. And seems he was mostly talking about the Scarlet
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i get higher DR the epic MX....i never got to do a direct comparison between dragon and FS7 but dragon will probably have the edge.....
my issue with scarlet MX was the lack of higher fps and the high compression settings....i never shot my epic MX at anything higher then 5:1, resolution and overall IQ just takes too much of a hit for my taste....
 
From previous posts Paul's workflow is atypical ( good for him, looks great ) of what most are doing with digital motion cameras.

However all Paul's post reference MX sensors , they don't acknowledge the big differences between it and current Dragon sensors which the Raven uses. MX sensors are now 2 generations old and seemingly destined for EOL.

Please keep this in mind when comparing tech from this year with sensor tech now 4-5 years old .

& Paul just posted something similar 2 seconds ago ; )
 
morgan_moore said:
Gene.

To me the C300ii is/might be the production company standard -TV prodcos.
S
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I highly doubt this. Canon and the C-series are viewed as low end cameras.

It takes cameras several generations of cameras to work into true TV production work horses.

Look at this very interesting list by Panavision credits on TV show cameras - Alexa on 77 shows, then Sony on 21 shows, then Red on 6 shows. Only one show is shot with Canon. The C300 II won't be the camera to change that. They might get a few shows on the C300 II (if they are lucky), then the next generation Canon a few more. But it will take several generations for Canon to make their way in.

http://www.panavision.com/TVCredits
 
Ben Scott said:
I don't think the FS7 can compete with what I got out of the Scarlet-MX in those controlled cinematic environments, let alone a Dragon. It may end up not being the right investment for me but I really hope it is. Don't really want to go back to a world of compromise this time around, but I think this is going to be a very aggressive move by Red into this arena and sop hopefully they have some bases covered.

I'm finding myself sticking up for Red in here and Sony on Reduser!
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Can you elaborate on this? In my experience the Scalet-MX sensor is no where as capable, as the one in the FS7/F5 in terms of dynamic range or noise performance, let alone the fact that Redcode (Cineform) is compressed vs uncompressed 16bit RAW out of the Sony to an Odyssey 7Q+.

I've worked with plenty of Scarlet footage and found it to be inferior to even my F3L in terms of dynamic range, noise performance and color accuracy.


Take a look at the exposure edge tests on CML. It's quite revealing...

http://www.cinematography.net/edited-pages/compare.htm
 
Gene. These are major dramas which is clearly alexa home - I dot know the level you work but I doubt any of those shows were shot by owner ops.
In the uk xf305 and c300 are pretty much king of the hill for general tv. Logical as they were the first 50mbs cams that are not full shoulder $60k cams.
pds shooting c300 lose focus all the time - the c300ii sorts that and will fly off the shelves
 
morgan_moore said:
Gene. These are major dramas which is clearly alexa home - I dot know the level you work but I doubt any of those shows were shot by owner ops.
In the uk xf305 and c300 are pretty much king of the hill for general tv. Logical as they were the first 50mbs cams that are not full shoulder $60k cams.
pds shooting c300 lose focus all the time - the c300ii sorts that and will fly off the shelves
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I'm not delusional in thinking I'm going to be shooting a TV show anytime soon. I'm very realistic in my goals. However, I don't want to be shooting reality / low end TV shows forever either, which are dominated by Canon. (and being enroched by the FS7). I'm aiming and making progress towards the middle level jobs - network promos, music videos with a little budget, TV Main Titles, etc... And the mid-end, at least in LA, is dominated by Red (many of which are owner / operator type deals). The high end is all Alexa which is just a pipe-dream at this point and not a camera I can afford anyways.

With that said, I'm probably just going to go all out and get the Mag Weapon. The Raven has a fixed EF mount and I would love the PL option. The M 4/3 format is not so desirable either. But then again, it's risky to put so much money into a camera these days, which is why the Raven is so appealing to many people. You get the brand without the price. Not sure.

I'm definitely not a Red fanboy, but I do feel there's a time and place for a Red / RAW workflow and there's a place for the FS7 and Canon, which I will keep as I'm getting quite a bit of lower end work to pay the bills with it.
 
Here in NYC i can rent a privately owned Red Epic Dragon package (support, lenses, MB, FF etc) for $300 / day. Not sure where the economics of a Raven work, unless you simply want to own one, which is certainly valid too.
 
klk said:
Here in NYC i can rent a privately owned Red Epic Dragon package (support, lenses, MB, FF etc) for $300 / day. Not sure where the economics of a Raven work, unless you simply want to own one, which is certainly valid too.
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This speaks to the fundamental economic problem I see with Red - they rent privately for so little compared to what they cost - and the bigger the market (New York, LA) the cheaper they seem to be from owner/ops.

Here in Nashville, my Sony PXW-FS7 is a $300 a day rental - no lenses, no kit. At the same time, I could probably get a RED Epic with the owner as an AC for $300 or maybe $400.
 
Here in Norway the C300 made big inroads in tv productions. Not the big dramas, but for a lot of other stuff. Heck, I even had to buy one for a children's to series I shot for NRK (bbc equivalent), but we went with a prores recorder as its codec didn't hold up in post. It looked very nice, but I hate the form factor of that camera intensely. As it doesn't have 4K, I sold it as soon as the show was over and got an fs7 for those kind of jobs.

Europe and LA are two different planets anyway;-)

I never shot the Scarlet, but last weekend I used both my FS7 and EPIC on a documentary, and to me the images I got from the EPIC is just nicer and "fatter" somehow. This is even before grading, just LC A LUT on the Sony and straight out of the RED with just an S curve applied in camera
It's all down to taste I presume.

As as for price, I'm often only getting. A USD100 more for my basic EPIC package, and the FS7 has already paid it self off. It's new so I can charge a higher price as it was a shortage of those cameras as well
 
Harry Lime said:
Can you elaborate on this? In my experience the Scalet-MX sensor is no where as capable, as the one in the FS7/F5 in terms of dynamic range or noise performance, let alone the fact that Redcode (Cineform) is compressed vs uncompressed 16bit RAW out of the Sony to an Odyssey 7Q+.

I've worked with plenty of Scarlet footage and found it to be inferior to even my F3L in terms of dynamic range, noise performance and color accuracy.


Take a look at the exposure edge tests on CML. It's quite revealing...

http://www.cinematography.net/edited-pages/compare.htm
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you get 16bit raw from a 7q and FS7? Strange, you must have a different cam than everyone else, who is getting 10-bit linear raw in a 12-bit container out of theirs....

Redcode's compressed raw is fantastic. Best thing about the camera. As for quality, I cannot comment on the IQ of Scarlet footage that has come your way but if I look at my showreel the Scarlet stuff is far better looking. You DO have to really understand the camera and codec to get the best out of it though. Far more than most cameras I have used. Obviously it does no NR or sharpening internally, leaving that to post, which is something I prefer.


Some Scarlet screen grabs - Stuff I doubt I could recreate with my FS7

Rage Buggy shot on Red Scarlet X at Wildtracks, Newmarket by Ben Scott, on Flickr

The Beast of Rainham Marsh film shoot - Red R3D stills by Ben Scott, on Flickr

Beast of Rainham Marsh - Still from Red R3d by Ben Scott, on Flickr

The Beast of Rainham Marsh Shoot -Day 5 by Ben Scott, on Flickr

Nadine Shah - To Be a Young Man by Ben Scott, on Flickr


One with a bit more DR

Ford GT70 - Red Scarlet by Ben Scott, on Flickr
 
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Ben Scott said:
you get 16bit raw from a 7q and FS7? Strange, you must have a different cam than everyone else, who is getting 10-bit linear raw in a 12-bit container out of theirs....


ast of Rainham Marsh film shoot - Red R3D stills by Ben Scott, on Flickr

east of Rainham Marsh - Still from Red R3d by Ben Scott, on Flickr
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The Sony recorder packs the RAW into 16 bit files. Much in the same way the 700 packs 11 bit files into 12 and the FS7 10 into 12 (but wasn't that just 2K, or across the board?)

Loving the two moody ones. Out of curiosity how much work in grade on those? The second green/orange tint, was that added?

cheers
Paul
 
Just about 30 secs in Redcine-X to pull some green in the shadow. The rest is a result of set design and shooting mixed temp lights - an HMI through the window above and a tungsten practical on a dimmer. The final final version looks a million times sexier.

The Sony recorder packs the RAW into 16 bit files.
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So that's not quite the same as what is being spit out of an Epic/dragon/Weapon etc...
 
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RAW is 12bit on FS7 via XDCA. Though, given some of Sony's colour science, some bits are better than others...
 
Great shots Ben. And I agree with you on this on. You could not pull grabs like that from a FS7 IMHO
 
Liam Hall said:
RAW is 12bit on FS7 via XDCA. Though, given some of Sony's colour science, some bits are better than others...
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That's the case on paper. If you're able to check, check the lowest couple of bits. I don't have an FS7 but that wasn't always the case.

cheers
Paul
 
Yoak said:
Great shots Ben. And I agree with you on this on. You could not pull grabs like that from a FS7 IMHO
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Thanks Yoak. Those are all grabs from a quick 'Redcine X onelight' grade. After they have gone through Resolve or whatever they absolutely sing to my eyes. FS7 internal or raw cannot do that, although I've shot some stuff I really like with it.
 
I've always liked the RED image and thought RED RAW was a genius move but I've always been put off owning one by the antics of their staff on their forum. Ive seen some rather harsh treatment meted out to those with a mere whiff of complaint. They still seem to attract the BMW driver of camera owners over there, if you know what I mean.

They may well have improved in recent times but I feel happier buying from companies with far less "personality."

The only thing I'd buy from RED would be RED RAW recorder/monitor a la the Odyssey which would probably sell like hotcakes to people like me who won't go near their cameras.
 
tbh honest it hasn't been like that in a good few years, basically since Jim Jannard took a back seat. What you will find is people on Reduser rabidly obsessing over things and taking any criticism of Red to heart, in much the same way that people do on here, only here it's about a broader range of cameras.

The plus side is as a community it is very supportive and just because of the nature of the cameras and what they are used for, you tend to be talking to people with more experience and knowledge who are very generous with their time. I have learned a ton from a fair few reduser contributors.

Frankly, the way Sony have treated me over the light leak in the Sony A7s and the first 4 months of the FS7's life, I would much rather buy from a company where I have a direct line to the boss and where they constantly update and add new features to their camera for free.
 
Isn't anybody going to mention the m43s sensor size?!


This is a huge deal, especially when coupled with a fixed EF mount.


It's 1.9x crop sensor size (18.7), that's GH2/AF100 aesthetic vs 1.5x FS7/C300 image format. There's a huge other issue of having to calculate DOF and FOV for 35mm/cinema shooters.


It's something to be talked about. I won't be surprised if the camera forces you to crop even more in various key modes.
 
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