Red One & 5D & AF100

S. Matthews said:
well then that would just be a jerk move..... just kidding I guess it would be funny... "it was all shot on a handycam", no chance, still the whole bait and switch can be good to shake up a group who gets too picky without actually being able to tell the difference. For example a friend's dad had a friend who thought he was a wine connoisseur, so they had a taste test, from 10 dollar bottles up to hundreds, he couldn't place any of them, he couldn't even tell if it was a Merlot or whatever lets just say he's not the wine guy in the group anymore. We tried it with vodka and a friend he picked out four different brands on the first go.
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I just wouldn't be surprised. I did that a long time ago with HPX500 lens tests between a $125 SD lens and a $7k new HD lens. I asked people to choose and the way I did it, people were "so sure" it was a certain way, then the other way, and people were very surprised at the results.
 
As the M4/3 sensor is a little smaller than a film 35, and much smaller than a full frame sensor, DPs will have to pay close attention to the F stop being used to attain a similar "film look" DOF. I think the shallowness of 5D as it's commonly used is much too shallow for my taste. And by the same token, some of the AF100 footage I've seen, as well as the "Verse" short film, was shot with too deep a DOF for my taste at f8-f11. I'm looking forward to working with my AF to attain the look I want, and then judging the camera's performance from there.
 
Chris Santucci said:
Hardly. If the 5D were "cool" and didn't deliver image quality, nobody would be using it. I think it's pretty simple math - for people who use and ask for the 5D and 7D, their choice is based on the end product (image) divided by cost and time. If that equation is the "cool factor" then OK.

If the AF100 for example managed to surpass the image quality of the 5D and 7D, then, maybe the million (or so) that are in use will be cast aside.

Part of why film is almost completely dead, I'd say, has to do with cost and time (loading, unloading, scratch testing, transport, processing, transfer, dailies, dust busting, etc.) Budget is becoming more and more the determining factor, and when you can squeeze footage out of a $2,500. camera body that looks like it was shot on 35mm film (to a layman), that's something a little more than what you could call a "cool factor" especially for producers looking to produce commercials that will have a limited lifespan.
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I'm sorry; did I say shooting with the 5D was a kludge? I meant to say nightmare from hell. Moire, banding, jello, and narrow DR are the hallmarks of 5D in addition to ergonomic awkwardness, poor monitoring, silly connectors, and the requirement for double system sound. Oh, I forgot; what are all those under and over-cranking frame rates available on the 5D?

I would hazard a guess that you shoot 5D and it serves you and your clients well; good for you. It's a tough business and anyone lucky and good enough to be successful in it has my deepest respect. Personally, I'd rather drive a truck than make a living with a 5D, and I'm not such a great driver. Might be fun to see more of this country, but I'm not sure I'd enjoy the conversation on a CB radio very much.

I do believe the 5D has it's place; crash cam, B-cam, hidden cam, wild and crazy cam, stealth movie cam, and, sure, for some projects at some budgets, the perfect A cam. I can imagine projects where the actual look of the 5D makes it a good choice. Actually, I really can't, but I'm sure someone else can.

On you view on the economics of shooting film and the rise of the 5D; we agree. Yea!

Finally, even if most viewers cannot tell the 5D footage from 35MM film, I can, and I'm not in this business to please the TV audience. OK, sort of, but only after I've pleased myself.

Have a happy holiday and stay warm in Buffalo; I shot up there and it was very beautiful. Enjoyed that wings place too. Rocking out.

Good shooting and best regards,

Leo
 
I know we're all winding down, getting ready for the guy in the red suit, and I hope everyone has a safe and happy holiday and returns to enjoy our virtual corner pub.

I absolutely did not do any switching around to try to deceive as to which camera shot which images. It's entirely straight forward.

I don't apologize for any flaws or oversights; as much as I love you all, you're not my clients and you didn't pay me to do meet any particular criteria. I've posted what we done because the community is eager to see just what the AF100 can and cannot do and Barry was generous enough with his time to let us have a go. I've added the 5D and Red material as a frame of reference, and I think, despite any shortcomings in methodology, it shows some pluses and minuses. I made no claims that anything we posted was definitive, other than some significant problems with the 5D and rather impressive ability from the AF100; frankly better than I had guessed.

As to which camera is which; the highest quality images are from the Red. No surprise. The very sharp images are from the AF100; I have little doubt that one of my first adjustments will be to crank the detail down even more. The most telling images to me are the charts; the 5D shows significant banding and moire. The keys are also very instructive. Both Red and AF100 were very easy to pull very good keys, the 5D less so, but far from terrible. Really, I thought the 5D keyed better than I would have predicted.

On the AF100 noise issue, I don't have enough information yet. Surely the AF100 is noisier than the Red. Could it be camera setup? Post flow? I don't know yet. I promise to share anything I discover. It's quite puzzling at this point because we can't see it in our monitors in the studio and edit suites.

Watch out for the drivers who have enjoyed too much "Christmas spirt" and enjoy!

Good shooting and best regards,

Leo
 
Ticheli said:
I know we're all winding down, getting ready for the guy in the red suit, and I hope everyone has a safe and happy holiday and returns to enjoy our virtual corner pub.

I absolutely did not do any switching around to try to deceive as to which camera shot which images. It's entirely straight forward.

I don't apologize for any flaws or oversights; as much as I love you all, you're not my clients and you didn't pay me to do meet any particular criteria. I've posted what we done because the community is eager to see just what the AF100 can and cannot do and Barry was generous enough with his time to let us have a go. I've added the 5D and Red material as a frame of reference, and I think, despite any shortcomings in methodology, it shows some pluses and minuses. I made no claims that anything we posted was definitive, other than some significant problems with the 5D and rather impressive ability from the AF100; frankly better than I had guessed.

As to which camera is which; the highest quality images are from the Red. No surprise. The very sharp images are from the AF100; I have little doubt that one of my first adjustments will be to crank the detail down even more. The most telling images to me are the charts; the 5D shows significant banding and moire. The keys are also very instructive. Both Red and AF100 were very easy to pull very good keys, the 5D less so, but far from terrible. Really, I thought the 5D keyed better than I would have predicted.

On the AF100 noise issue, I don't have enough information yet. Surely the AF100 is noisier than the Red. Could it be camera setup? Post flow? I don't know yet. I promise to share anything I discover. It's quite puzzling at this point because we can't see it in our monitors in the studio and edit suites.

Watch out for the drivers who have enjoyed too much "Christmas spirt" and enjoy!

Good shooting and best regards,

Leo
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thanks but can you fill in the definitive answer:

x-red

y-moire

z-af100


correct?
 
Ticheli said:
I know we're all winding down, getting ready for the guy in the red suit, and I hope everyone has a safe and happy holiday and returns to enjoy our virtual corner pub.

I absolutely did not do any switching around to try to deceive as to which camera shot which images. It's entirely straight forward.

I don't apologize for any flaws or oversights; as much as I love you all, you're not my clients and you didn't pay me to do meet any particular criteria. I've posted what we done because the community is eager to see just what the AF100 can and cannot do and Barry was generous enough with his time to let us have a go. I've added the 5D and Red material as a frame of reference, and I think, despite any shortcomings in methodology, it shows some pluses and minuses. I made no claims that anything we posted was definitive, other than some significant problems with the 5D and rather impressive ability from the AF100; frankly better than I had guessed.

As to which camera is which; the highest quality images are from the Red. No surprise. The very sharp images are from the AF100; I have little doubt that one of my first adjustments will be to crank the detail down even more. The most telling images to me are the charts; the 5D shows significant banding and moire. The keys are also very instructive. Both Red and AF100 were very easy to pull very good keys, the 5D less so, but far from terrible. Really, I thought the 5D keyed better than I would have predicted.

On the AF100 noise issue, I don't have enough information yet. Surely the AF100 is noisier than the Red. Could it be camera setup? Post flow? I don't know yet. I promise to share anything I discover. It's quite puzzling at this point because we can't see it in our monitors in the studio and edit suites.

Watch out for the drivers who have enjoyed too much "Christmas spirt" and enjoy!

Good shooting and best regards,

Leo
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Thanks for taking the time to do it, Leo. Having the extra comparisons definitely helped.
 
The Red camera is labeled X in all shots.

The 5D is labeled Y, except for the grey cloth background table-top objects shot; the Y camera in that shot is the AF100. We did not shoot the 5D on that shot. Remember our test day with the AF100 was never planned to be a side by side camera comparison.

With the exception of the grey cloth background shot table-top, the AF100 is the Z camera.

Good shooting and best regards,

Leo
 
Ticheli said:
The Red camera is labeled X in all shots.

The 5D is labeled Y, except for the grey cloth background table-top objects shot; the Y camera in that shot is the AF100. We did not shoot the 5D on that shot. Remember our test day with the AF100 was never planned to be a side by side camera comparison.

With the exception of the grey cloth background shot table-top, the AF100 is the Z camera.

Good shooting and best regards,

Leo
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thank you for proving me correct.

i also assumed that the tabletop shot grey cloth "Y" was AF100 because of your mentioning that the KODAK yellow cap thing had worrisome highlight roll offs. in fact also look at the golden time piece, you see in red one that one spot of glare on it is ok but on the af100 that single spot turns into much more of the rim getting blown out/clipped. but yes the edges/bevels on the letters of kodak cap's highlights are uncomfortably rolled off. but the sharpness is extremely good on af100 in that shot
 
I dunno about you but I'm definitely okay with lugging an MX with a Cooke T3 18-100 around, and doing handheld with it.

I'm almost allergic to the jittery cam dslr footage swamping the net and last night I saw a christmas commercial that was so painfully shot on a dslr I lost my train of thought mid conversation.

AF100 will be nice with some master primes, a big zoom or cookes... I'd be afraid to handholds that or an epic with less.
 
This is what my mushy brain thought everything was :

Shot #
1. X = RED - 00:06
2. Y = 5D2 - 00:11
3. Z = 5D2 - 00:16
4. X = AF - 00:21
5. Y = 5D2 - 00:26
6. X = 5D2 - 00:31
7. Y = RED - 00:35
8. X = RED - 00:39
9. Y = 5D2 - 00:45
10. Z = AF - 00:49
11. X = AF - 00:57
12. Y= 5D2 -00:59
13. Z = RED - 01:00
14. X = 5D2 - 01:02
15. Y = AF - 01:04
16. Z = RED - 01:06

: )
 
I like shoulder mount cameras with mass plus big lenses, but I'm not sure I want to hand hold our Arri Alura 18-80 with AF100, not without a big counter balance. How much does the Cooke zoom weigh Timur? The Alura is 10 lbs. I really bought the Alura for the large sensor P2 Varicam that I hope is weeks away from release, but I'm sure I'll use the Alura with our AF100's on sticks at least.
 
I think the point that's getting lost the most, is that irrespective of preliminary tests and comparison tests, 99% of you are going to love this camera 99% of the time.
 
Dino said:
I like shoulder mount cameras with mass plus big lenses, but I'm not sure I want to hand hold our Arri Alura 18-80 with AF100, not without a big counter balance. How much does the Cooke zoom weigh Timur? The Alura is 10 lbs. I really bought the Alura for the large sensor P2 Varicam that I hope is weeks away from release, but I'm sure I'll use the Alura with our AF100's on sticks at least.
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I shoot with an MX'd RED and 18-100 ritually, handheld. I'm sure the entire setup weighs just over 30 lbs, and my arms are sustainably large because of it. I love it though.
 
bhdfield said:
As the M4/3 sensor is a little smaller than a film 35, and much smaller than a full frame sensor, DPs will have to pay close attention to the F stop being used to attain a similar "film look" DOF. I think the shallowness of 5D as it's commonly used is much too shallow for my taste. And by the same token, some of the AF100 footage I've seen, as well as the "Verse" short film, was shot with too deep a DOF for my taste at f8-f11. I'm looking forward to working with my AF to attain the look I want, and then judging the camera's performance from there.
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The M43 sensor on the AF100 is oversized and according to a math Barry Green has done (floating here somewhere), the DOF stop difference between AF100 and S35 is less than half a stop.
 
Dino said:
I like shoulder mount cameras with mass plus big lenses, but I'm not sure I want to hand hold our Arri Alura 18-80 with AF100, not without a big counter balance. How much does the Cooke zoom weigh Timur? The Alura is 10 lbs. I really bought the Alura for the large sensor P2 Varicam that I hope is weeks away from release, but I'm sure I'll use the Alura with our AF100's on sticks at least.
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about 12 pounds. The cooke is a heavy bugger
 
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