Red DOF concerns

C

caseyhayward

Active member
I don't want to come off as a troll or hater, but I am frustrated that we have only seen red footage shot with a 300 mm lens (eek!), not what most of us will be shooting with on a daily basis. The longer lens gives shallower DOF like film, but does red look so filmlike at say 50 or 80 mm? I am curious and hope to see soon.
 
The images you see on the RED website were done with Cooke 65mm S4 lens. .. to date there has been only one image that was shot with the 300mm, which is the second milk solo girl shot. In essence, you already have a taste of what a shot looks like with a 65mm prime.
 
If I understand correctly RED shots with Nikon primes should have exactly the same DOF as images shot with a Nikon DSLR with the same lens.
 
DOF on the 35mm format is far shallower than what you can achieve with a 1/3" chip camera (like the DVX, XL2, HVX, etc.). It's even quite a bit shallower than the 2/3" chip cameras (like the Varicam and F900) can produce. It is, however, equivalent to the DOF you can acheive with one of the 35mm adapters (like the Redrock M2 or Letus), so that's a relatively inexpensive way to see if the DOF is to your liking at a particular focal length. FWIW, my recent short film "The Faithful" was shot with lenses ranging from 28mm-85mm (nowhere near 300mm) and the DOF is extremely narrow in some shots. You can see the trailer at www.thefaithfulmovie.net. I don't think you will have any problem achieving narrow focus using RED, regardless of the lens you choose.

I have also mentioned before but I think it bears stating again; I think the bigger problem for many people will not be obtaining shallow DOF with this camera, but learning how to control it effectively. A static interview shot on a tripod is one thing, but if you are planning to use Red on a dolly, crane, Steadicam, or even to track a subject moving toward the camera - especially at wide aperatures - you're going to need a dedicated AC to keep the focus sharp. This definitely isn't your mom's point and shoot. :)
 
Haakon said:
I don't think you will have any problem achieving narrow focus using RED, regardless of the lens you choose.

I think the bigger problem for many people will not be obtaining shallow DOF with this camera, but learning how to control it effectively. A static interview shot on a tripod is one thing, but if you are planning to use Red on a dolly, crane, Steadicam, or even to track a subject moving toward the camera - especially at wide aperatures - you're going to need a dedicated AC to keep the focus sharp. This definitely isn't your mom's point and shoot. :)
Click to expand...

Haakon,

You brought up two valuable points. I, too, not worry about the shallow DOF from the Red 1. I will have my wish fullfilled. But your second point makes our future filming very challenging: how to controll it. It seems that FF will be needed for those moving shots.

Shaun
 
Haakon,

I spent a lot of time looking at your DVX/M2/Flyer thread before I shot the same set up back in August. The clips you showed make a lot more sense now. The blonde kid is a DOG.
 
Shallow DOF gets a lot of discussion, but the fact is that virtually every production requires a continual assortment of various DOF, from real shallow to isolate viewer's attention to certain subjects/items in a frame, on up to medium to extremely deep DOF for establishing shots. 35mm shooting enables inherently shallow DOF, but in my mind one of the true challenges for someone stepping up to shooting 35mm is to learn how to use and control camera, lighting, and lens features to allow them to achieve the necessary DOF for each shot, whether it be shallow, medium, or deep. Since 35mm quite easily and naturally displays shallow DOF, it is quite often a bigger challenge in 35mm to get enough light into a lens to stop it down to achieve medium to deep DOF.

Critical focus is definitely necessary in shooting 35mm shallow DOF shots, but throughout the production of a feature, commercial, or television program, or any type of production, there will be a vast number of scenes/shots that require you to also know how to effectively and quickly achieve medium to deep DOF.

The bottom line is that one of the hallmarks of professional cinematographers, videographers, and photographers is their ability to know their camera systems, lenses, and filters well enough to be able to quickly achieve the DOF required by any shot or scene, whether that be shallow, medium, or deep.

If you're a novice or intermediate shooter, and/or new to 35mm shooting, my suggestion is that you read about DOF acquisition techniques first, then regularly take your camera system out into various types of lighting environments, natural and artificial, and experiment with controlling DOF. You may subsequently work a lot with big crews where you have the support of a DP, AC, etc., but if you have practiced extensively pulling focus for yourself in your off time, and know your camera system and how to achieve any DOF quickly, you'll come off as a professional to the crews you work with – and keep getting hired. The added bonus is that when you shoot your own stock footage or small productions by yourself, you'll be able to quickly pull your own focus, and achieve various DOF rapidly and effectively. Time is money…

If you're new or inexperienced, remember that every pro-level shooter was once in that same stage. Practice and repetition, and knowing their camera system, or systems, are what got us to be pro-level shooters. No rocket science involved. When not on a paid gig, get out and shoot! Every time out you'll learn something new. People ask me what I do in my time off. I tell them I hang with family, and do sports and recreation, but I also tell them that I take one or more of my camera systems out and shoot. They're invariably curious as to why I would voluntarily do work (shooting) on my time off. I tell them that I love my work, love to learn new things about my camera systems, and that practice improves my craft.

When you get your RED One camera system, my advice is to practice, read tech forums, then practice some more. The more you learn, the more you should realize you don't know. Keep that attitude and you'll be good throughout your career as a shooter. Many pro-level shooters get to a point where they feel they have all the answers. I’m not one of those. Technology is dynamic, not static, and thus my learning curve is dynamic. The point at which you feel you have all the answers is the point at which your learning slows down (or stops) – a dangerous move in a competitive marketplace.

Hope this helps some of you...
 
It should also be noted that the Red Cam will have a feedback system very different than a traditional film camera and so a sharp focus should be easier to obtain.

Rosco
 
Very true...RED has stated that the detachable screen and EVF will both be 720p, and that the RED focus assist will be very capable. Given those parameters, achieving an accurate focus when shooting with RED by yourself should be possible. For the sake of the many shooters who regularly or even just occasionally shoot alone, with no focus puller, I certainly hope so.
 
Great post, Gibby. I like shallow DOF at times as much as the next guy, but it's just one little corner of the cinematic vocabulary, and often overdone IMHO.
 
Gibby, thanks for the great advice.

Is there a way RED can have a DOF assist on the camera? That might be a big help.
 
Thanks guys...when I have the time, I'm always glad to put in my two cents. Hopefully it helps you guys fast track your learning curves.

Many DSLRs have a DOF Preview function...as simple as pressing a button by the lens. I have no knowledge of such being included in RED One, but with RED's attention to detail, and specifically their inclusion of a 720 screen, a 720p EVF (optional), and a focus assist program, it wouldn't entirely surprise me if RED One also included a DOF preview function.
 
Is a DoF preview necessary on a camera where what-you-see-is-what-you-get on the EVF/LCD?

On a DSLR the DoF preview is needed as the aperture is normally fully open on the lens until the moment you press the shutter release.

Nick
 
DOF preview? isn't that when you press a button in your SLR and your iris stops down to where you set it? I don't think there'll be a dof preview for RED, since the image you get on the viewfinder is already the same image the sensor is getting (especially beacause the iris should be in the same position for the duration of the shot!).

Maybe you guys are talking about another thing, maybe a DOF focus scale, just like some lenses have, but DOF preview? I don't think that works for a motion picure camera...

Cheers!

-And Gibby, nice posts, very inspiring!

EDIT: Ah, Nick, beat me to it!
 
Good point Nick, and thanks Taubkin. I prefer to work in a WYSIWYG environment anyway. In electronic cinema and video acquisition I'm used to trusting what the monitor and EVF, with focus assist, are telling me. It hasn't been finalized whether RED One will also be able to function like a DSLR, with the capability for one touch digital still acquisition from its CMOS sensor. If it does, perhaps it would have a DOF preview function, or a DOF focus scale as you mentioned Taubkin. Hope this clarifies what I meant...
 
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I think a DoF preview for still or motion picture capture would only ever be necessary with an optical viewfinder (RED 2?)

An EVF is always WYSIWYG (apart from the complexities of viewer LUTs etc, but that's in another thread!)
 
I was thinking more on the line that the camera would aid you in how to adjust the lighting and/or aperture to get a desired DOF.
 
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