Red "digital magazine"?

there is a fundimental issue with everyone choosing thier own harddrive.. is that people tend to cheap out and would start possibly too slow drives (5400rpm etc) that couldnt keep up and could start to drop frames.. which of course would be the customers fault but you can gurantee when your on set and you have 50 people around looking at the camera guy scrath his head, the camera will be the scapegoat.

I dont have any problem with it being a Red proprietary drive, as long as its affordable. And you know as well as i do, the people like you that want to, will figure out how to open it up and swap the drive out anyways... it will void the "warranty" of the drive but would make it very clear where the responsibility would lie.
 
Well if you're going to spend 17,500+ for a camera you won't buy cheap drives to save just a few bucks.
 
ha ha i wish that was true.

I still see people with $10,000 HVX's cheap out and buy $3.00 dv tape when they record to SD.

But your last statement kinda proves my initial point.. and counters your initial point... but i know what you mean.
 
What are we actually expecting from this drive? I guess we're talking about 7200rpm SATA drives in a RED enclosure? And they'd presumably be of the smaller laptop variety (2.5")? This would tie in with specs that say they'd be from 40-160GB.

What interests me though is that Ted (I believe) stated somewhere that there'd be an onboard option for "under $1000" and he seemed to be talking about the cheapest option. The fact he's picked that high a figure suggests to me it's likely to be nearer the top end of that estimate than the lower, yet SATA laptop drives aren't nearly that expensive.

Which brings me to another point - would a 7200rpm SATA drive be fast enough to capture 2k data with the likely rates of the REDCODE? It makes me think that the RED-DRIVE may have more than one physical drive in its own "mini-RAID". Or maybe it won't be SATA at all? With things moving as they are, it could conceivably be SATA-300, or something else completely.
 
Are SATA drives common in the filmindustry?
When I asked for an offer for a new SAN and I asked for SATA drives, which are 1/10th the price, they laughed at me and told me SATA are good for simple desktop pcs but nowhere near the speed and reliability of SCSI drives.
 
Jeff Kreines wrote in the cinematography.net forum about writing speed:

'We got a reliable 18MB/s out of the Toshiba 1.8" 40 gig drives'

He is the Kinetta guy, so probably this claim is based on serious experiments. 18 MB/s is 144Mbits/s.

When I save a tipical 1920x1080 JPEG2000 file at a size of 400KB, I see no difference between the original uncompressed file and the generated JPEG2000 file at a side by side comparison. If I save a 400KB JPEG file, I can easily see artifacts and a difference between the original and the JPEG file (JPEG2000 is wavelet based, JPEG is DCT based). So if I put together two 1.8" drives in the RED camera and the quality of the RED Codec is about the same as JPEG2000, then at 1080 45p the quality of the picture will be practically indistinguishable from uncompressed recording (288Mbits/s). And even at 60p it will be almost indistinguishable (still much better than HDCAM).

(And probably one 2.5" will perform about the same as Jarred pointed out)
 
Stephen W said:
would a 7200rpm SATA drive be fast enough to capture 2k data with the likely rates of the REDCODE? It makes me think that the RED-DRIVE may have more than one physical drive in its own "mini-RAID". Or maybe it won't be SATA at all? With things moving as they are, it could conceivably be SATA-300, or something else completely.
Click to expand...


At Cinegear I asked about that and got a clear answer:

The RED Drive is a single SATA drive in an enclosure. Not a RAID but a single SATA Drive. It will not be capable of recording uncompressed 4K. Only compressed, using RED codec, and possibly additional codecs as well.
I do not remember the exact cup on data-rate, but it's probably bound to the physical limitations of the drive (whatever that is...)

The external RED RAID will offer the higher bit-rates for uncompressed recording.
 
Quote from Yuval Shrem: At Cinegear I asked about that and got a clear answer:The RED Drive is a single SATA drive in an enclosure. Not a RAID but a single SATA Drive. It will not be capable of recording uncompressed 4K. Only compressed, using RED codec, and possibly additional codecs as well.
_______________________________
Strange answer you got (i do believe you) given that on most things Red comment on they usually add at the end "Subject to change as we are still at the development stage" or words to that effect.

One single SATA disc mmm.. This would have to be reliable and dependable, does that mean it will be a 2.5inch disc or a new special SATA disc? Red has stated that the price of the Red Drive will be under $1,000. I myself was looking at more than one enclosure but one disc at, or even close to that price, sounds expensive. Unless the enclosure gives the disc special protection and has various special connections AND is designed so that the disc can be removed from the enclosure and a new (fairly cheap disc from Red or elsewhere) can be fitted to the enclosure.

If Red official simply forgot to mention the usual caveat then fine. if not then perhaps someone at Red could re-affirm Yuval's comments even better if they confirm discs can be removed from enclosure:)

Michael
 
Mike the Beginner:

Undoubtedly RED would have told Yuval at Cine Gear that the specs For RED One were not finalized. Though Yuval didn't mention the "not finalized" caveat, what he posted is pretty accurate as per what RED has stated about their intentions for the RED Drive.

In my published interview with Jim Jannard (April '06), he clearly states what RED's intentions were for the RED Drive - removable enclosure, 21/2" SATA, possible data rates as high as 200 MB/S using REDCODE. In online forums has stated RED's intention to keep the cost of the RED Drive below $1k USD.

Jarred has placed a link to my published interview with Jim Jannard in the "RED Press Links" thread in the sticky section of this forum. I regularly see users on this forum ask questions that are already answered by Jim in that interview.

On DV Info Stuart English has stated that RED Drive may feature a removable disk from the removable RED Drive enclosure, and that the RED Drive and RED Flash are targeted to the 4:2:2 color space workflow - I.E. 1080p, 1080i, and 720p.

Nothing has been finalized, but the above are their stated intentions.

Hope this helps...

Gibby
RED #8
www.cut4.tv
www.4umat.com
 
My wishes for now...

2k
in RED codec
on internal media
and at least an hour of storage time per media...

4k can wait...I'm not in that kind of a hurry

When the need appears...the funds will cover the storage expense. Logical.

Everyone aims at the best. 4k.
Hm. Ok.
What, the goal is to make productions for the big screen -and pay 100$ pr disc? ....no no no
It doesn't work that way.


-my train of thoughs
'hope it didn't run over someone ...
 
MarcusX said:
Are SATA drives common in the filmindustry?
When I asked for an offer for a new SAN and I asked for SATA drives, which are 1/10th the price, they laughed at me and told me SATA are good for simple desktop pcs but nowhere near the speed and reliability of SCSI drives.
Click to expand...

Some of the new SATA drives can run 10kRPM and are about the same throughput as SCSI drives. Those guys probably didn't know anything about SATA versus SCSI.
 
omen said:
My wishes for now...

2k
in RED codec
on internal media
and at least an hour of storage time per media...
Click to expand...

Tech specs for RED One have not been finalized, but these RED development team member recent statements on the DV Info RED forum should get you to smile:

Jim Jannard:

2k is 2048x1152 in the RED camera.

Stuart English:

Max resolution for on-board recording is 2048 x 1152 pixels 10 bits log 4:4:4 RGB . Therefore 1920 x 1080p at 4:4:4 can be cropped out of that if desired. 4:4:4 RGB uncompressed at 2K and 1080p is also available via HD-SDI

As previously described, we can support internal recording of 2048 x 1152 4:4:4 so 1920 x 1080 4:4:4 can be derived from this larger frame - either by cropping prior to dual link HD-SDI export - or in post production.

2K in the RED camera is 2048 x 1152, 1080p is 1920 x 1080. The camera could quite easily crop this 2K frame size by 6% and output 1080p 4:4:4 via the dual link HD-SDI outputs either during recording or during playback.

Graeme Nattress

It is most likely that internal recording will have a 4:4:4 RGB option (1080p, 720p and 2k).

Since they've previously stated that REDCODE is targeted at internal recording, and that they've tested data rates as high as 200 MB/s, your desire to have internal 2k recording to REDCODE looks like it could happen...

The RED Drives have been projected to range from 40GB to 160GB, so the 160GB may give you close to one hour of 2k 60fps 4:4:4 internal recording, depending on the REDCODE compression level selected.

Gibby
RED #8
www.cut4.tv
www.4umat.com
 
Last edited:
Gibby said:
It is most likely that internal recording will have a 4:4:4 RGB option (1080p, 720p and 2k).
Click to expand...

This is great because I can see 95% of the footage shot on red be delivered as this in the first year or so.
 
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