Red Competition Running Scared?

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mike the beginner

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Over in HD for indies i read Mike Curtis latest article on his previous reporting on seeing the Red footage.

You guys know Mike Curtis far better tham i but for what it is worth i feel very sad for him. I think his reporting is much like Jarrads reports in that they are HONEST HELPFUL WITHOUT BIAS and make damn good reading. Sure the guy was waxing lyrical about the footage and why not. Where else can you see a product being sold for a fraction of the cost of its competitors and possibly offering (for me no possibilities about it) something better. Its groundbreaking earth shattering stuff and it only happens very rarely in ANY INDUSTRY!!!

My take on this is that Red has the big guys with their big profits extremely worried and this is just the start of their defence against Red. Instead of badgering the guy they could have allowed him to re-view their footage again and Mike could have passed further comment.....unless of course their footage simply did not reflect the price of their camera!!!

Well they better not try that with jim Jannard or else they could end up with one massive RED NOSE:)

I reckon they will be watching and hoping Red slip up somewhere and make a hash of things. eh........by now they should realise that miracles only happen once a year around XMAS time.

SANTA JANNARD WILL BE BUSY AROUND THEN:Drogar-BigGrin(DBG) it might be a bit later for the rest of us, but getting a miracle camera only happens once in a lifetime. Keep up the good work Red you must be doing something right eh.

Michael
 
From a business point of view I would imagine the greatest annoyance to the bigger companies is that Red will likely force their development progression along a few years. Basically big companies like Panasonic, Sony etc have a timeline for releasing certain standards of products at certain price ranges, and to them an equivalent machine such as the Red One would have been maybe 2 or 3 cameras and 5 to 10 years down the line. As such they'll probably have to scrap their next fillers and move onto equivalent cameras ahead of their anticipated schedule.

I wouldn't be suprised to see the larger companies announce a similar build over the next year or so, either that or for them to buyout RED at a handsome price lol.

Lets face it any company the size of Sony or Panasonic has likely developed stuff similar to Red One already. It's understanding whether there is a market for such a device and whether it would cripple their other products that is of most interest to them.

The beauty of Red One... The unconventional progress taken towards it's development will certainly unlock doors in other companies development which means the digital cinema will only advance because of it. To me that can never be a bad thing!
 
Mike is a very professional and smart guy so I understand why he has taken the tack he has. however there was nothing "Biased" about his rather emotional but obviously genuine reaction to the RED footage. It has to be either Dalsa or Panavision, those were the only camera Co. that could be threatend by Red. Sony and Panasonic are really not worried, they have plenty of entrenched support in the community to keep them alive till they can compete. But as far as being respectful, come on, lets call a horse a horse. They should be scared, "Be afraid, be very afraid!".
That's the whole point behind the Red. Mike will be vidicated and every one else will either adapt or fade away. I have no sympathy for cry babies.
 
I agree with Greg. I think you guys are reading too much into this. I think he just realized on his own that his exuberant post regarding RED, timed with his visits to all those vendors, was not very diplomatic. And as a consultant who is looking into possibly working in L.A. I think he realized that more tack was required in order to maintain relationships with ALL the vendors.
 
I think it is clear from Mike's piece that someone said something.

"In the end, some have felt that my visits to other facilities were just a sham so I could say how much better Red was. This is absolutely not true."

I don't think he should backpedal his exuberent post; there is nothing wrong with getting excited about something exciting ! I don't see a conspiracy here, just sour grapes.
Aloha
-A
 
OK, I'll take out the sour grapes part, is that what you mean ? and stand by the rest of my statement. No spin , just a right on opinion.
Aloha
-A
 
Greg it is very diplomatic of you to say this, but not having the specific information we are forced to make conclusions based on the information at hand. Mike's blog has become an important source of up to the hour industry and technology news and his opnions have weight. In the indie film community his praise can be worth thousands of $, maybe even more in buzz. So it makes perfect sense that a competitor to Red, or even a rental house affiliated with another camera would have a problem with his glowing apraisal of the Red image. Especially since Mike has been particularly critical (although fair) to the most recent batch of affordable HD cameras. But it is not in any way malicious or even counter-productive. In fact I feel it is extremely productive to force companies that have products that cost more and perform the same or less to re-arrange thier priorities to better compete, and thus better serve us.

And if we are totally wrong, and some post house was just whining about not being posted first. I can't feel too bad for them.
Please feel free to enlighten us as to who and what the problem was, if it was already posted on a board just provide a link.
Honesty is the best policy.
 
"A vendor read Mike's piece in which several companies that had hosted Mike at their facilities were barely mentioned in an article that focused almost exclusively on RED. Without any clear indication from Mike that he would in the near future also be writing about the other vendors he had visited, the vendor concluded that Mike had misrepresented the purpose of his visit and was angry. Apparently others felt the same way."

OK, in that case, I have to back to the sour grapes analogy.

The giants in the industry may not be scared, but when Red ships there is going to be a collective " oh **** ! we have to change our marketing plan"
that is a very exciting prospect.
Aloha
-A
 
Actually it is that simple, when red ships, if it delivers on specs as it seems on track to do it will set the high end of the giant's business into a tailspin. They, the giants, are not standing still to be certain and they will immediatly change their high end products marketing plan and respond with new stuff. It may look like business as usual to the layman and it may take a year or two for the plan and products to respond but they will most definately change as soon as red ships.
Aloha
-A
 
The thing is, if red truly delivers footage that rivals that of the Panavision Genesis, TGV Viper, Dalsa Origin, or Arri D-20, it truly can have an industry shattering effect on the world of digital cinema.

Think about it, why would someone choose to rent out the uber-expensive Genesis when they can just purchase a RED for much less than the rental fees and own the darned thing afterward.

RED can honestly crush the major company's grasp on the digital camera market by delivering something of comparable quality, and yes even Panavision's digital branch.

In the least it will cause companys to either lower their pricing dramatically, develop a camera even more magnificent, or DIE, plain and simple.

I see no reason why some big film-makers such as Robert Rodriguez or James Cameron wouldn't buy into the RED way of thinking.

RED has the power to truly revolutionize the market, now it's all in the mighty hands of the mad scientist Jannard and his posse.
 
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Knowing a thing or two, about a thing or two is this business is one thing. Not knowing a thing or two about what one speaks in this business can be dangerous. If you're a mouthpiece [sheep], be it through a forum, a blog or any other form of mindless unqualified regurgitation you set yourself up for vicious criticism.

Red is cocky. And they think that they can best ALL the other pros who've quite literally spent their lives in the cinema technology industry.

I say to red bring it on. Prove yourself. Invite the respected industry professionals, who know what's correct and what's B.S. to take a look under your kilt.

Opening up to the HDforIndies guy is hardly who you want to bring in if you want to be taken seriously. There are a number of universally respected individuals who ARE all things D-Cinema. If you have nothing to hide why not get someone reputable from the ASC involved?

Silicon Imaging wants feedback, has a working prototype, and allows anyone to download their images. I applaud them. Good show, you are a model for all up and comers.

Promising the disenfranchised INDIE "big dreamers" a magical sugarplum fairy 4K-camera sounds more like a proof of concept for venture capital funding at best.

"Look, Mr. Angel investor we raised $300,000+ from a bunch of suckers, I mean people, based on nothing more than a sheet of paper."

I say to any real indie filmmaker, the camera doesn't fcuking matter. You don't need to drop $20-$30 grand on equipment to make an awesome movie that people will want to see, and think looks beautiful. When more casting and distro people get this, your choice of camera will barely matter.

ARIF
casting director and long time lurker.
 
Greg Lowry said:
I give up. I'm due back on the planet earth now. Bye all.
Click to expand...
Adios amigo. :Drogar-Smoke(DBG):

"Change is the law of life. And those who look only to the past or present are certain to miss the future."

- John Fitzgerald Kennedy
 
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Goodness. I leave the forum for a few hours and all hell breaks loose!

Honestly, from everything I've read, I think this particular incident is getting blown wayyy out of proportion. I read Mike's original post right after he made it, and while there's no question that he was overly enthusiastic - perhaps even giddy - about the footage he saw from RED, he didn't say anything negative about any other company. I've been to the Dalsa compound, I've been in their theater, and I've seen the amazing footage that they've been able to capture with their camera. There's no question that they have created some great technology! But if RED is able to put together a competitive product that performs equally as well (if not better) for a fraction of the cost, then by all means - I will gladly stand up and declare that there is reason to be excited!

I think that someone who posts a blog online (it is a BLOG, after all) - especially someone who doesn't represent any company or institution - should be allowed to say whatever he feels without being lambasted by other professionals in the community. Perhaps they won't invite him back after seeing where his core interests lie. That's their perogative. But to rake him out on the coals for expressing an opinion... well, I don't really see the merit in that. I think it's sad that he felt the need to retract his opinions - good or bad - just because the competition is heating up and the pressure is beginning to mount. I haven't seen any RED footage yet myself and I don't have any clue as to whether or not RED One is truly holding its own against some of the other options out there, but if Mike felt that excited after seeing a demonstration that he felt the need to celebrate it on his own website, then by all means more power to him.
 
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Baloney. It's disappointing that you would buy into such nonsense.
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Greg i fully respect your opinion and your views, your in this business and you see things the way YOU see things. Others are also in the same business and THEY see things differently. Me i am in the sport fishing business and i see plenty of this kind of incident all the time. I waxed lyrical in my comments about the article others have too.

Sure Mike could have WORDED the article better, we can all do that whatever we write, do or even how we behave. But when you start to get emails from people with a VESTED INTEREST in a part of THEIR business that could suffer because YOU did not write what THEY wanted to hear the water starts to get muddy. No i don't believe any of the big camera makers said anything......They rarely do, if they wanted to they can always get others to dirty the linen for them. The world never changes it is the same old story.

If i run a fishery that charged hundreds of pounds and suddenly someone comes out with a similar fishery and starts to charge a fraction of that cost for a similar product i would be in BIG TROUBLE. There are dozens of ways i could try and counteract that event, but my whole outlook would have to change drastically if i were to survive.

Greg i read what you said and it would be nice if everyone behaved in a respectful generous and protective manner towards each other and all businesses behaved likewise, but that rarely happnes!!

As someone else pointed out the big boys like Sony Canon and panasonic will adapt. Others who are only in the top end line of equipment will likely survive with the support of the established high end film crews by sticking to what they have and improving on it. Big expensive cameras look right in a blockboster movie it may take a while to change that. Red as a B camera if all goes well could quickly be taken up by many of those big boys.

I have only read a little on the cinema history, from that i gather the big boys have always managed to stay ahead of everyone else by offering something bigger or better. each time someone threatens to score a goal in their market they simply move the goalpost. The difference this time is that if Red achieves what they set out to do those goalposts are going to be very difficult to move this time!! Move they will because you can always improve but maybe by that time Red will be want to improve also.

Most of us here on this Red forum believe in Red and believe that Red will produce a very special camera indeed. Digital still cameras turned that market upside down. Red may not have quite the same impact but it is likely they will have a pretty big impact and it will greatly reduce the cost difference between high end cameras and others right down to the low end stuff. Nothing is about to happen that would not have happened anyway, it is just that Red has done it at a price point that all others will now have to take into account. The result of all this is that the majority of videographers benefit. Look at what Canon are offering with their two new cameras. Sony will HAVE TO either bring something out at around the same time that is equal OR bring something out later on (with advance warning) that is going to be better.

All the big top end camera makers might have to somehow take the modular approach particularly with the sensors if they want their expensive big cameras to be bought with confidence from those who expect the best and most up to date technology and don't mind paying for it. From an outside perspective looking in i cant really see some of the big film crews deserting their big cameras for a much smaller Red one as their main camera, least not immediately. Things are about to change however and those who recently bought big expensive cameras to rent out may loose a lot of possible lost revenue. It is no wonder some people are starting to get annoyed but that is hardly the fault of Red.

Ps It would be easy to think Red is cocky and their attitude is such, but i don't think that is the case at all. It is simply called clever marketing:)
 
I received the emails on CML. I've seen what happened and I obviously agree it was a misscomunication rather than "competition running scared". But I don't think the other parties were fair to Mike at all. The professional community, or rather the guys o CML, are not fans of the RED marketing approach and excessive "hype". They are serious about cameras (But a little bit full of themselves, afterall who isn't?) and don't want somebody screaming marketing tricks on them, they want results.

Mike Curtis (and Jarred Land) wanting or not are part of the RED marketing strategy (not that they are mere puppets, but are influential people around this virtual environment, and vehicles for information. Their "sneak peak" illustrates that). And the RED marketing strategy is phenomenal! You know the inspiration? DVXUser.com. From seeing what this forum did for the DVX and HVX, RED has come up with a brilliant way of communicating straight with their public, in the channels their public most respect (sites where we can get lots of information, like this or HDforindies).

Well, poor Mike has taken the blame. It's a blog for christ's sake! He wrote his father got a surprise 70th birthday party this weekend there! Should anybody be upset? It's a new media, and people need to know how it works, because if people are not ready for new things, they won't understand RED just like they are missing their brilliant marketing. Camera or without camera, I can see, this company (unlike others) is run by intelligent people. I'm really impressed.

The competition is not scared right now. But all RED is about is making the big guys angry. People doing 2K and 4K in their garages? From camera shops to post houses, everybody is going to loose money to them!

As for Mike, he was smart in acknowledging whatever error they poined out and apologizing. In his field, it's not very good to have enemies like those. But on the other hand, his blog adds value to his own name, so maybe it's a fair trade. Anyway, all the best for him.
 
Greg. I seriously hope you do not go. I read your posts on the other board and they are always helpul.The long post you wrote about marketing I found to be an extrodinary piece. One of the best i ever read. You should refresh your memory of it to remember what you're up against.
In my opinion your point of view is much needed and any forum without it loses. I know you can weather this so come on back and enter the fray. Some people are listening.
And as far as the Curtis thing goes I think it came down to one sentence which was a mistake. The criticism he got from it did not come from fear of RED but for the seemingly discarding of the courtesies he was given. Mike may know his shite technically but he wears too many hats and is slightly naive to think he can be free of any critiscm politically.
 
in general i don't think panavision, Arri is going to be running scared of RED. remember hollywood rents systems and they only use proven systems. RED may start off as B camera or FX houses will be 1st to use the RED ... hollywood usually doesn't BUY camera's they RENT ( panavision only rents and they have been in business for years - now one could go into the financials of panavision BUT that's another story) ... hollywood studio's have no problems paying the camera's day rate ... independents may have a problem paying the day rates and they will be 1st to use RED, the SI camera or some other camera ...

perhaps the current camera situation is like NLE's back in 80's - 2004 ?
Avid sold systems for 100k + .. when other NLE started to come out in mid 90's that sold for 500-1000 Avid paid no attention until they saw that one could buy a NLE for under $2000 and edit a feature !!! they then introduced products to compete ( they did seem to come in late ) .. today Avid is still the #1 NLE for big hollywood studio type productions and they make a NLE in many price ranges. FCP is making inroads with Indie's and some big features are cut on FCP .. bottom line is there are more NLE's offered today then 10 years ago = and Avid are less $$ today then 10 years ago -
so perhaps RED is not going to have other camera's manufacturers running scared but will get them thinking different and they'll come up with models to compete AND RED just might influence others to create camera's ? 5 years down the line i think there will be more camera's offered then there are today ..

RED will set a new image value at X price point - which others will have to either match, come close to , or exceed for X price point ... IMO it is going to be exciting times ahead and ALL of us are the winners ...
 
It would be very sad if anyone left this forum because of different views we are only having a discussion!!!

That and learning is what this forum is all about. Greg has been super helpful to me and others so he has just gotta stay :)
 
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