RED Cameras?

Barry_Green said:
I don't want to "bust" any "myths", I'm just laying out what I'm experiencing. I know there's a lot of "DIY" mentality on DVXUser, born of necessity, and I accept that, but... folks, anyone going into a Red shoot with a DIY mentality is going to find themselves booted off the set faster than Bill Clinton can make up an alibi.

People who are going to be hiring a Red are going to expect you to be a professional, with all the professional gear and all the proper professional equipment and all the knowledge to make sure that they have no problems.

It is an absolutely amazing tool. But not for tinkerers. Not for the home depot worklight crowd. :)

So, yes, I'd love to be involved in doing a book and DVD and workshops on the Red One and the Scarlet.

I mean, check this out: a Red One has 9x as much resolution as an HD250. It's three times as wide and three times as tall as a 720P camera. How can you not love that?
Click to expand...

Barry, like Shawneous said, theoretically, one could shoot a project with a 22500 (with the ND's) indie RED setup. This would also be workable for small TVC's, etc.

This price point is manageable for small production houses/independents.

For event coverage? Not likely. Regional TVC's, MTV's, short films? Why not?

Of course "one man band"is out of the question, but a camera operator and 2 extra cinematographers/grips could do the trick?

If you are to write a RED book, please do write about these potential indie setups! Rodriguez shot Mariachi on a 35mm (or was it 16mm?) film camera himself with a very small crew. Would a "Mariachi" be possible with a 22500 RED?

Red has been marketed as a top end camera, and the current users are trying to cement the camera credibility by sticking to high end production prices- can't blame them. But, Barry, as potential future owners, would it be possible to get a film done with Shawneous suggested camera setup? In controled conditions it would look better than an HVX/HPX shoot, no?
 
shawneous said:
Barry, I disagree with your price add-up.

For someone that has a reservation, you could get going for much less.

$18000 - Camera + CF Module
$400 - 2x CF cards
$500 - Nikkon mount
$1250 - Production Pack
$950 - Battery + recharger/AC power
$1750 - Red LCD
-$2500 Acc allowance
=$20350 from Red.

+$350 - 3x Manual Nikkons (24mm, 50mm, 85mm)
+$600 OConnor 50 with sticks
=$21300 Indie Red Setup.

Pretty? Nope. Functional? Very.
Click to expand...
"very" functional? Hardly, as you only have one battery in there. Are you going to sit around for two hours while your lone battery recharges? Absolutely have to have at least one more battery...

Second, the $2500 allowance was something that very few of us got, that doesn't apply to the vast majority of owners nor does it apply to anyone today.

If someone wanted to go ultimate indie I'd say they could even skip the production pack; they just couldn't take it handheld with any real success...

I dunno Shawn, I mean yes you could configure something that could acquire footage for about $25,000; even then you'd be relying on used still-camera lenses. Far from ideal. And I'd argue it's a bad idea (and yes, I know some people will howl at me for this, but too bad -- it's true). Using a system like that is going to be slower and more cumbersome than if you just used an all-in-one HVX or EX1 type of setup. So why spend 4x to 5x as much, to end up with a system that's going to take you 2x to 3x as long to shoot with? You'll get more pixels, sure -- but do you need them? At the cost it's going to imbue?

If someone's an "indie" (which the proper term is probably more like "guerilla") then there's two things they don't have: money and time. So why on earth would they want to shoot their indie/guerilla project on a Red, which is going to take 4x as much money and 2x to 3x as much time? When the HVX is good enough for the big screen? (not as good as a Red, of course, but good enough for yet another big-budget Hollywood film to use it, "Diary of the Dead").

I just don't see the logic. Not at all. The Red One is for professionals, it's aimed at professionals, it's designed for professionals, it's priced for professionals, it's not appropriate for the broke do-it-yourself crowd. I think the Scarlet would be FAR more appropriate for the indie/guerilla group, as it's more affordable and much smaller, making it faster to work with.
 
Last edited:
SPZ said:
Barry, like Shawneous said, theoretically, one could shoot a project with a 22500 (with the ND's) indie RED setup. This would also be workable for small TVC's, etc.
Click to expand...
I disagree. I mean, sure, anything's possible -- you can bolt a sidecar to a motorcycle, but that doesn't make it a car, it just makes it a terrible-handling motorcycle. You could "frankenstein" something together, but if you're on a professional shoot and taking people's money, the last thing I'd want to do is show up with inadequate gear that I had to fudge my way around with.

Regional TVC's, MTV's, short films? Why not?
Click to expand...
Try it for a week, and you'll answer the question yourself. A properly configured Red One, sure. A bare minimum skin-of-the-teeth kit? You'll be hatin' life after the first day. You need the tools you need to do the job.

If you are to write a RED book, please do write about these potential indie setups! Rodriguez shot Mariachi on a 35mm (or was it 16mm?) film camera himself with a very small crew. Would a "Mariachi" be possible with a 22500 RED?
Click to expand...
He had no crew, it was himself and Carlos Gallardo (his main actor). Shot on 16mm on an Arri 16S. Could a Red with a nikon mount and a shoulder dovetail do that? Probably. Does Rodriguez shoot films handheld on a stripped-down 16S anymore? Not on your life. That's something you do once and put it behind you.

Red has been marketed as a top end camera
Click to expand...
Marketed as, designed as, and priced as, yes.

But, Barry, as potential future owners, would it be possible to get a film done with Shawneous suggested camera setup?
Click to expand...
It's possible to get a film done with an RCA 8mm camcorder and a 1970's era CP16 (see "The Blair Witch Project.") It's possible to get a film done with a Sony PC7, the first-generation miniDV pocket camcorder (see "The Celebration.") It's possible to get a film done on an HVX200 (see "Jackass 2", and portions of "Diary of the Dead" and "Cloverfield"). It's possible to do an Oscar-nominated film on a DVX100 (see "Iraq in Fragments" and "Murderball"). Heck, it's possible to do a theatrically-released film on an XL1 ("28 Days Later") or a PD150 ("Open Water").

So if you're asking if it's possible, of course it's possible. So if all you're wanting is to make it possible, again I reiterate: why would you want to go half-assed with a stripped-down Red at $25,000 instead of using a fully-kitted out HVX at $7,000? 1/4 the money, proven "good enough" and infinitely faster and easier to work with? If all you're after is "possible", that should be extremely possible.

To me this whole discussion is like somebody saying "I can get a used BMW 750iL for $18,000; why would I want to buy a Hyundai for $7,000?" And when you look at the BMW you find out that it's got no tires, not even any wheels, no windshield, and after spending $18,000 you can't afford a drop of gas. Obviously you're not going to be driving it any time soon! Whereas the Hyundai you could take down to the gas station, fill the tank, and drive it to work every day.

That BMW might be a great buy for someone who has the resources to spend a few thousand dollars on getting proper wheels and top-notch performance tires and everything else. But if someone's gonna say "well, I'll just go down to the used tire store and pick up some $20 radials"... I dunno, that's just a bad idea.

In controled conditions it would look better than an HVX/HPX shoot, no?
Click to expand...
A Red will always look better than an HVX or HPX500 or HPX2000. The question is what it's like to work with it. If you've got a budget and enough of a budget to have a big enough crew to work with the Red, then kit it out so that you've got what you need! If you can't afford to, then you're in over your head and you should re-evaluate.

My take, anyway.
 
Last edited:
Those Batteries go FAST.
Unless you have a short shoot I'd suggest having at least 4 with two chargers.
They take FOREVER to charge.

One thing I don't understand is why people are going around buying pl lens sets for their reds. Are people so against renting glass?
 
I Completely agree on this.

Renting lenses from houses that have the facilities to maintain precision glass is good business. Owner-operator glass, like everything owner-operator, rarely has a mechanism for back-up equipment in the event of a failure.

If you've ever done a feature, you know how many times a DIT and ACs are on the phone with the rental house for replacements, extra bits and AKS. I can't believe that many of these REDs will be working mainstream features once the rental market is saturated.

People should listen to Barry. He really does know what he's talking about here. It is what it is.

e
 
Matty_g said:
Those Batteries go FAST.


One thing I don't understand is why people are going around buying pl lens sets for their reds. Are people so against renting glass?
Click to expand...

It definitely makes more sense to do so.

The Cooke SI Primes new are $97k ALONE!

And trying to find a decent set of GOOD 35mm Zeiss primes that aren't boogered up is like trying to find hens teeth these days.


Anything halfway decent has been gobbled up now that the RED is shipping in quantity.
 
Matty_g said:
Those Batteries go FAST.
Unless you have a short shoot I'd suggest having at least 4 with two chargers.
They take FOREVER to charge.

One thing I don't understand is why people are going around buying pl lens sets for their reds. Are people so against renting glass?
Click to expand...

Depends on what you want to do with your camera, honestly. But, at this point there's really no option. Like Matt McGee said: they're all gone.
 
Barry_Green said:
I just don't see the logic. Not at all. The Red One is for professionals, it's aimed at professionals, it's designed for professionals, it's priced for professionals, it's not appropriate for the broke do-it-yourself crowd. I think the Scarlet would be FAR more appropriate for the indie/guerilla group, as it's more affordable and much smaller, making it faster to work with.
Click to expand...

Better watch it! Or we might think you know something about SCARLET.

Someone asked if RED ONE could pull off El Mariachi. I say LOL WUT!?

DVX100 + 35mm Adapter could pull off El Mariachi. HVX200 + 35mm Adapter could rock El Mariachi.
 
I've been doing as much reading as I can about Scarlet and have been following RED, though in the background for a while now. The Scarlet seems to mean many different things for people with different needs, but it sure makes me curious. NAB '08 is something I wish I could attend, but I'll have to hear it all from you folks.

Haha, Kholi you're El Mariachi comment made me laugh. Hilarious.

-Kegan
 
Well, if the adapter is a Letus, anyway. =P

I'm tryin' to make it out to NAB to see Scarlet and the HMC150. I HOPE Scarlet is somethin' of its own camera... some people are speculating that it's not gonna be a stand-alone system?

RED's hype machine is annoying as hell, however. There's an entire sub forum with nothing but speculation.
 
Ahh, I know! I read that as well, about it not being a stand alone camera and more of an extension for the RED to get in smaller, tighter spaces. I think that'd be considered more of an accessory than a new camera - at least in my opinion.

The RED ONE is way out of my price league and if it were to be in my price league, I think I would want to spend the money on having a good, strong setup instead of a bare bones one. That's why the Scarlet and HMC150 interest me, but the Scarlet interests me a bit more, simply because RED is known for taking user's considerations to heart and have already pulled off an amazing camera (not that Pansonic doesn't, because they very much do...but I guess, here's hoping that Scarlet is one of a kind and targets a VERY specific market).

-Kegan
 
I agree with David. LOL. Different topic... but it was a great technical feat.
 
Last edited:
I think he's talking about for OWNERSHIP. Not renting. RED ONE is well out of the price range of a lot of people.
 
Fair enough, I should have also mentioned out of my price league, as well as not absolutely needed for the work I do. If a RED was something I really truly wanted and thought I could put it to the best possible use and have it be a wise investment, then sure I might do some budget reworking to give it a go...at this point though, it's not necessary for the work I have to do.

Glad you brought that up craig and good analogy.

-Kegan

EDIT: Like Kholi mentioned, if I were to ever purchase one it'd be more for renting than actually using on projects or for event videography. I do more videography than I film movies, so I'd likely rent it out to get some sort of return.
 
I'm not sure why people say "if you want it you'll ahve it." Okay. I want an F23.

Same rule applies?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top