recording orcehstral music with 744t. Looking for mic recomendations and techniques

L

loudlael

Active member
I'm about to work on a documentary about a chamber orchestra. There will not be any CD but the Director has still said he wants the "best quality".
I'm willing to invest $600 in mics and may be able to get another 600 from the director. I'm not sure if I should go for space pair(not recommended to mix to mono).

What mic technique do you recommend for Documentary? To be submitted to film festivals and mixed professionally. How do I set the dynamic range? Do I ask for a rehearsal of pp ff passages. I know I don't want to hit the limiters.

What are your experiences recording orchestras with a 744t? Sound Good enough or should I bring in my DAW?

I have a rode NT4 but am reluctant to use it for an orchestra.

Thanks for your input.
 
loudlael said:
I'm about to work on a documentary about a chamber orchestra. There will not be any CD but the Director has still said he wants the "best quality".
I'm willing to invest $600 in mics and may be able to get another 600 from the director. I'm not sure if I should go for space pair(not recommended to mix to mono).

What mic technique do you recommend for Documentary? To be submitted to film festivals and mixed professionally. How do I set the dynamic range? Do I ask for a rehearsal of pp ff passages. I know I don't want to hit the limiters.

What are your experiences recording orchestras with a 744t? Sound Good enough or should I bring in my DAW?

I have a rode NT4 but am reluctant to use it for an orchestra.

Thanks for your input.
Click to expand...

I think a Decca Tree formation would be the way to go. Check out Alan's post on "Pics from the set" thread:

http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?219996-Pics-from-the-set&p=2102123&highlight=#post2102123

He can probably give you a better idea on what mics he used, but I believe you use 3 omni mics. Good luck and enjoy!
 
You might check out Gearslutz.com (or a book on recording) for information as well. Look for techniques, and don't get caught up in the brand name money race as long as you get something that works well.
 
I do recordings for a local chamber music group that performs at Herbst theatre (in SF). WE record for granting purposes and have gotten very positive responses to the recordings. I use what I call Speaker Oriented Stereo Recording (I'm still looking for a catchier name).

Basically I put the mics where the speakers would be. So very wide on the lip of the stage with the capsule at finger tip hight and aimed at a sitting musician center stage. I'm using a pair of Oktava cardioids and going through a SD MixPre into a flash recorder at 48/24. You could go 44.1/24 but I do everything else at 48 so I just keep things simple. After trimming etc I bounce out versions at 44.1/16 and usually MP3 (grant folks now want to be able to stick it on their iPods). Earplay's music can be very dynamic so I have the limiters set on the MixPre to "clip proof" the recorder and try to have levels so they just trip the limiter on the most explosive sections.

SOS recordings sound really wide in head phones (I kind of like it but YMMV) like sitting in the first couple of rows, but sound great on speakers. You can go to EARPLAY's site and listen to samples. I think everything up there now has been recorded this way.

I find all the "ear oriented" recordings to be very tight and narrow. Another plus is the mics are out of the way and not sitting obtrusively in the middle of the stage.

earplay.org, I believe.
 
Oh and about mono compatibility. That really goes back to music and AM radio. Think about it, where would someone listen to this in mono? If there is some strange reason you know that you need mono compatibility then certainly pay attention to that but otherwise it's very safe to assume your recordings will never be played in mono.
 
How many days of recording are you going to do?
I hate to say the same thing as usual, but if its a couple weeks worth, why not rent the absolute best mic's possible?
It will be ridiculously cheaper than $1200 and the recording will obviously only be better for it.
 
Rent the gear, better for your money with that you're given.

What's in the chamber group? and how big is the space/hall/venue you're recording in? This is your first deciding factor. Mics come next for coverage of the entire piece. As Noiz2 has suggested, mics at lips of stage or centered in the middle and front of the musical group. Picture where the conductor would be standing, and your main mics should be there. Supporting mics such as flanks and spots are used to bring presence/dryness/transients into your mains.

Omnis are heavily used in AB, Decca, and outriggers. Cardioids and hypercardioids are more into tighter-patterned configurations, group spots, solos. Among the most commonly used mics for classical/chamber recordings are DPA (B&K), Neumann, Schoeps, Earthworks. PZM mics are also used in diffused setups, stage lips, and group spots ie. Crown PCC160. If you could get a chance to rent any of these microphones and start smart-placing them into their spots, you'll be good as golden. If your chamber group is going to be performed in a live audience setting, you might consider flying/hanging these mics up in air especially your mains for sightline issues. Know your location where you'll be recording them, listen to the space. The better the hall the chances of using omnis are higher.

Your 744T only has 2 mic pres and 2 lines, which means you would need another sort of mic pre to feed line into your 3+4 ins. If planning on using only 4 mics, get/rent a 2ch. mixer. Do you want all your sources to be mixed down or ISO for post mixing purposes? If the former, then consider renting bigger mixers for summed signal into your 3+4 inputs leaving inputs 1+2 for mains. Also becareful when mixing down all your sources since you only have one chance at this; balance, delays, comb-filtering, phase. If you plan on multitracking this as ISO, rent a bigger recorder and/or mixer or bring your DAW. Also remember your shooting conditions and environment before diving head in; house power; location; safety factors; transpo of gear and equip; portability.

Your Rode NT4 could be used as an XY main if possible to keep costs down. Stereo image is narrower than a cardioid ORTF or omni AB and wouldn't get as much "room."

Pete, thanks for mentioning about that recording. I have the same event happening in 3 weeks, an annual concert. Yes, 3x omnis up on the Decca Tree.
 
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Decca Tree, MS (Blumlein) ...they all work great...but has anyone tried this mic?
The Holophone? I remember playing with the mic at NAB years ago when they first came out and
it was REALLY cool (and REALLY expensive).

Now they have a few cheaper versions and if they are anything like the original...should be nice!
http://www.holophone.com/products/porta-mic-pro

I've been wanting to try one. Imagine hanging this above the conductors head?
It's on my list for NAB 2011.

That said, I've been using a couple cascade FatHead II M/S into my SD722 with great results! You can not beat the price/performance of these babies (IMHO).

http://cascademicrophones.com/cascade_FAT_HEAD_Blumlein.html
  • FAT HEAD Stereo Pair Microphones
  • Aluminum case
  • Blumlein Stereo Adaptor Bar
  • 2 Premium suspension shockmounts
  • 2 Drawcord cloth storage pouches
  • 2 Micro-fiber cleaning cloths
  • Specifications and typical measurement report
$349.00 for the Fathead I
$399.00 for the Fathead II
 
ZazaCast said:
Decca Tree, MS (Blumlein) ...they all work great...but has anyone tried this mic?
The Holophone? I remember playing with the mic at NAB years ago when they first came out and
it was REALLY cool (and REALLY expensive).
Click to expand...

This I have the same logic problem as with any of the close pair mic set ups. The logic is you capture the sound "just like your ears would". Well ONLY if you wear headphones. If you play back on speakers it's "just like your head" if it were ten feet wide. Ego's aside I don't know anybody with a head that big. I use an X/Y pair for most FX recording because anything wider would be very impractical. But in a performance situation you don't have those restrictions. When conductors aren't conducting they listen from the house, often pretty far back. So other than for a curiosity I'm not too sure I want to hear it the way the conductor does, they apparently don't when they have a choice.

That said the set up I use probably would not work (the way I have it set up anyway) with a much larger group. For an orchestra you would probably need to get some distance or switch to a wider pattern. I'm using it on pieces that have from one to maybe twelve musicians, usually more in the four to six size.
 
Noiz2 said:
This I have the same logic problem as with any of the close pair mic set ups. The logic is you capture the sound "just like your ears would". Well ONLY if you wear headphones. If you play back on speakers it's "just like your head" if it were ten feet wide. Ego's aside I don't know anybody with a head that big. I use an X/Y pair for most FX recording because anything wider would be very impractical. But in a performance situation you don't have those restrictions. When conductors aren't conducting they listen from the house, often pretty far back. So other than for a curiosity I'm not too sure I want to hear it the way the conductor does, they apparently don't when they have a choice.

That said the set up I use probably would not work (the way I have it set up anyway) with a much larger group. For an orchestra you would probably need to get some distance or switch to a wider pattern. I'm using it on pieces that have from one to maybe twelve musicians, usually more in the four to six size.
Click to expand...

That's true...I could only demo it on headphones with a shaker.
 
In order for one to get a sense of what the mannequin head is truly capturing, the person would need to listen on headphones. If the recording was captured with these heads and played back on a stereo system, the stereo field would be exaggerated. Such that the room you're listening in would represent the inside of a HUGE head. Stated by Noiz2. Similar to ORTF except there isn't a head, but only the "ears" of representation.

When listening on headphones, it definitely feels like you're there!
 
Noiz2 said:
Oh and about mono compatibility. That really goes back to music and AM radio. Think about it, where would someone listen to this in mono? If there is some strange reason you know that you need mono compatibility then certainly pay attention to that but otherwise it's very safe to assume your recordings will never be played in mono.
Click to expand...

Not a very safe assumption, IMHO. Especially if the performance is ever going to be broadcast, there's as many different ways as Carter has little pills that it could end up in mono by the time it gets to a viewer.
 
One thing at a time:

- SD744 is as good as it gets. You will not get noticeable improvement in sound no matter what ADC/DAW combination you bring in. Only complications.
- No need to ask for pp sample, fff is enough, let that fall at -6dBFS and you are safe. Check the file with analyzer.
- I would use a pair of DPA 4060 miniatures in 40 cm AB configuration either flying the mics (practically invisible) or with a thin carbon fiber stand (almost invisible). Sound quality is again second to none.
- If there are soloists there might be a need to spot them with cardioids or hypers. Get a mixer (SD302?) for the empty channels on the SD744. Otherwise I would not bother with any more complicated mic arrangements than AB. Decca tree is fine for larger orchestras, an overkill for a chamber group. Besides Decca tree needs diffuse field omnis to work properly, not any old omni will do. Tree is also an eyesore.

Here is my post about the stands, also sound sample of a modern chamber group on Gearslutz: http://www.gearslutz.com/board/remo...g/371020-diy-onno-mic-stand-carbon-fiber.html
 
The 744 will be fine.

But your mic. budget is horribly low.

I record this sort of thing a lot.

I think your budget would be best spent on hiring the mics rather than buying.

Look at:- Neumann, Sennheiser, Schoeps, DPA, MBHO, Gefell and Soundfield.
 
Steve House said:
Not a very safe assumption, IMHO. Especially if the performance is ever going to be broadcast, there's as many different ways as Carter has little pills that it could end up in mono by the time it gets to a viewer.
Click to expand...

OK I'll bite. How? AM radio play, for orchestra??? Then it could go to a 15 year old TV maybe, if you were using it in a sound track. Films don't make mono compatible formats anymore (except for Woody Allen). TV isn't broadcast in Mono anywhere, at least not anywhere that is likely to play this recording. So unless your worried that your orchestral recording is going to played on sports radio, or maybe Rush Limbaugh to a discerning audience then you really don't have much to worry about. If you were doing jingles well that's a different story.

But I could have missed something, so what are the likely mono playback scenarios. Don't mean to sound snide I am really curious because I can't think of any. If there are some I haven't thought of I want to know about them so I don't spout misinformation about.

I record stuff in mono often but I haven't had a mono deliverable (except for AM radio) in probably ten years. But maybe I'm in a bubble?
 
Hey guys thanks for the info. I found my on-location recording book by Bartlett and that
Has made me more confused and clear at the same time.
I apologize for my mono question. I was confused about mixing mono dialogue and orchestra. Newbie moment.
So I was looking to rent a Neumann and pair of earthworks, but the rental budget got canceled. (I would prefer to buy because I record my self singing as well.)
All aside I'm just going to use my nt4, lav the conductor, and use my last channel for oktava w/omni capsul to capture audience. I plan on using a long headphone cable extention and moving the mic around during rehersal for best placement. (idea from Tony local mic rental place)
Thanks again
 
Noiz2 said:
OK I'll bite. How? AM radio play, for orchestra??? Then it could go to a 15 year old TV maybe, if you were using it in a sound track. Films don't make mono compatible formats anymore (except for Woody Allen). TV isn't broadcast in Mono anywhere, at least not anywhere that is likely to play this recording. So unless your worried that your orchestral recording is going to played on sports radio, or maybe Rush Limbaugh to a discerning audience then you really don't have much to worry about. If you were doing jingles well that's a different story.

But I could have missed something, so what are the likely mono playback scenarios. Don't mean to sound snide I am really curious because I can't think of any. If there are some I haven't thought of I want to know about them so I don't spout misinformation about.

I record stuff in mono often but I haven't had a mono deliverable (except for AM radio) in probably ten years. But maybe I'm in a bubble?
Click to expand...

Not saying you need to provide a mono deliverable but there are many places in the chain down to the final viewer where a signal that starts out in stereo can get collapsed to mono.

Playback on a DVD player that is connected to the TV through an RF adapter instead of the AV outputs - most of the converters that put the signal on an unused VHF channel are mono.
Broadcast is distributed on a cable system that converts stereo into mono on the head-end. Many smaller cable systems are pretty far behind the curve.
Viewed on a small-screen TV whose 'stereo' speakers are so close together they may as well be mono.
Accidental collapse by a minimum-wage techno-turkey in the station who's asleep at the switch - not too long ago I tuned in to an episode of the series "Things That Move" on National Geographic Canada. It's a very narration rich program but for the entire show, the only audio audible was the FX track (steam engine sounds and other railroad sounds) and a tinny-sounding music track. Commercials were fine but the show was completely devoid of dialog. Obviously the stereo channels were out of phase and somewhere in the broadcast chain the audio had been collapsed to mono with resulting cancellation.
 
Another question
How does sd mic press compare to something like a neve?
Has anyone ever done an a/b test?
I ask because I would like to upgrade my studio and wonder if these mic pre's are good for double duty( currently own 302 and 744)? Are they particularly designed for dialogue? Definatly sound better than my motu and focusrite. What is a similar quality studio mic pre?Looking for opinions.
Thanks
 
I own both Sound devices mic pres and rack mounted studio Neve pres.
The sound devices are cleaner and more transparent.
The Neve's add a color to the sound that is wonderful for music recording.
They wouldnt be my choice for dialog or anything you are trying to capture as natural sounding as possible (including orchestra)

loudlael said:
Another question
How does sd mic press compare to something like a neve?
Has anyone ever done an a/b test?
I ask because I would like to upgrade my studio and wonder if these mic pre's are good for double duty( currently own 302 and 744)? Are they particularly designed for dialogue? Definatly sound better than my motu and focusrite. What is a similar quality studio mic pre?Looking for opinions.
Thanks
Click to expand...
 
Rippie said:
I own both Sound devices mic pres and rack mounted studio Neve pres.
The sound devices are cleaner and more transparent.
The Neve's add a color to the sound that is wonderful for music recording.
They wouldnt be my choice for dialog or anything you are trying to capture as natural sounding as possible (including orchestra)
Click to expand...

Would love to come over to your house sometime
 
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