really ?

[Mattykins]

The thing that's frustrating is that a huge part of the price is that it's a specialty market. When I was still playing paintball constantly, I was buying little after market parts, machined out of aluminum, drilled, and threaded. exact sizing.

Ahh - a fellow paintballer! I used to play years ago. PSP Division 2 - semi-pro. Good times then. Getting paid to play paintball.

Too bad the NPPL just got liquidated. Never made it out to one of them.

But paintball isn't really the same thing. Paintball stuff was mass produced for a huge market. People buying crap that had no effect what-so-ever on their markers. Film is a little different. Not many people actually buy some of that stuff.

 

[Joseph Stunzi]

I wonder how much does the machine that produces this cost ? hmmmm....

I mean someone has to sew that!

 

[hoarp001]

Yes, but there is a hoop thing inside it, which is probably not an off the shelf part. That would have to be bent and welded, or moulded, either way, thats expensive to have done by a factory.

That material probably isn't cheap, and its a complicated shape, probably not sewn by a person and a sewing machine...


Im just saying that the zacuto stuff isnt as simple to produce as it looks, and the high price tag is worth it.

 

[emretufekci]

When you think about how expensive a piece of production equipment is try to remmember when you were explaining to your clients how the "oh, its a very simple shoot" was going to cost them $15000 not the $500 they were expecting to spend.

As said earlier, you get what you pay for. In our business you cannot compete based on price, somebody will always beat you..... Always. You have to compete on quality.

 

[Shibuya Oboya]

please don't get me wrong, I don't mean to make light of the work, design, or investment it takes to produce quality gear. You certainly get what you pay for, majority of the time. and I realize my comparison of paintball equipment isn't spot on, but I still feel it was a fair comparison when regarding the accuracy regarding machining tolerances, considering some of the moving parts. Very similar materials, and finishing processes. I also understand demand plays a large role in the final cost, but certainly there aren't more paintball players using high quality gear than filmmakers.

I'm just saying I understand the frustration of the price of items due to their use being limited, and I mean the amount that they are marked up because of it.

 

[Postmaster]

Where does that fairy tale of a small market coming from?

1. Film and Video gear is a world wide Zillion$$$$ market.
2. The profit that is made, is more than on similar parts and products.

Example:

Company A produces a complicated 5 axis milling, laser cut, andwhatnot special bracket for the mareket of - let´s say - a mountain bike.
It costs the company $12 to make it, it is sold for $24.99.

Company B produces a similar part for the film industrie.
It costs the company $12 to make it, it is sold for $250.

Good example is a folow focus. Simple design, simple function, not much to inovate - most mountain-bike parts are much more complicated - lot´s a parts are "off-the-shelf" anyway and look what they charge.

Frank

 

[emretufekci]

Where does that fairy tale of a small market coming from?

1. Film and Video gear is a world wide Zillion$$$$ market.
2. The profit that is made, is more than on similar parts and products.

Example:

Company A produces a complicated 5 axis milling, laser cut, andwhatnot special bracket for the mareket of - let´s say - a mountain bike.
It costs the company $12 to make it, it is sold for $24.99.

Company B produces a similar part for the film industrie.
It costs the company $12 to make it, it is sold for $250.

Good example is a folow focus. Simple design, simple function, not much to inovate - most mountain-bike parts are much more complicated - lot´s a parts are "off-the-shelf" anyway and look what they charge.

Frank

Which brings us back to economies of scale.

 

[leteeci]

I agree with you Frank!!


So, our plan should be, to convince some bike-parts company to do cinema-parts for us!!!


:beer:

 

[Postmaster]

Yeah, hehe.

Thinking outside the box.
There are lot´s of solutions outside of the film industrie.

Frank

 

[JHouser]

Where does that fairy tale of a small market coming from?

1. Film and Video gear is a world wide Zillion$$$$ market.
2. The profit that is made, is more than on similar parts and products.

Example:

Company A produces a complicated 5 axis milling, laser cut, andwhatnot special bracket for the mareket of - let´s say - a mountain bike.
It costs the company $12 to make it, it is sold for $24.99.

Company B produces a similar part for the film industrie.
It costs the company $12 to make it, it is sold for $250.

Good example is a folow focus. Simple design, simple function, not much to inovate - most mountain-bike parts are much more complicated - lot´s a parts are "off-the-shelf" anyway and look what they charge.

Frank

Frank. I see your point, and raise you one. There are several things which come into play here. DVXuser.com and the emerging film community in general has an interesting cross section of shooters. You have, teens who are learning about the craft, film students who are starting their careers, experienced shooters who may own their own production company and support themselves shooting, and weekend warriors who just love to have new gear and shoot around. The same holds true for Bike manufacturers. You can go to your local bike store and buy a rim for $15. If you look up you will see the "other" rims. Mavec rims which cost more than my whole bike! (and that is for one) So where does the law of diminishing returns kick in? For me, when I am on set and I am getting my full day rate I want gear that is a jewel. If I shooter is getting $800 for a show, why would a critical piece of equipment such as a lens support or a base plate which costs $500-$800 even phase him/her? If it is build correctly (Zacuto) It should last a lifetime. I have worked with sloppy gear. It is like a piece of sand under your eyelid. I can tell you, you only buy one crappy Israeli arm before you learn your lesson and fork out the $200 for a good one.
Now it is a bit ridiculous for a "proud father" with his new A1 to go out and buy a $125 3/8>1/4" adapter, just as ridiculous as me buying that shiny set of Mavec rims...

One more thing... Until 3 years ago, where were the Follow Focus customers? You COULD mount a follow focus to a naked DVX100 but what's the point? While you are at it you might as well tape a cardboard cutout of a Mitchell Magazine to the top of your camera to complete the look. What I am getting at is there WAS no Sub $1200 for a follow focus. When your Aaton XTRProd is $60K what is a $2,000 for a REALLY well machined High tolerance Follow focus? Now that there is the $3,000-$6,000 camera market (with adapters) There is a rather large demand for them as there are a considerable number of DVX/HVX/PXL2000's than AatonXTR's out there. So yes, now there is a market for a cheap FF. BTW Tolerance is a big factor too when machining. Making a zero backlash Follow focus is no easy task. Campy Bike hubs are $500. There are way more people who ride Road bikes than need a Follow Focus, But they still sell hubs for $500.

I would be shocked if Steve sold more than 100-200 of those 1/4-3/8 adapters in one year. (shock me Steve) Any comparable mountain bike part which sold 100 a year would be the same price if not more.

Ever shop for snap-on tools?....

 

[dadoboy]

Speaking of Zacuto and follow focus units, Zacuto's follow focus is the best I've used in the sub $1000 category... oh wait. It's $1500 I think. Getting into Chrosziel territory. Still, it didn't have hardly any "play" at all. I guess that's worth 500 in the long run.

 

[JHouser]

please don't get me wrong, I don't mean to make light of the work, design, or investment it takes to produce quality gear. You certainly get what you pay for, majority of the time. and I realize my comparison of paintball equipment isn't spot on, but I still feel it was a fair comparison when regarding the accuracy regarding machining tolerances, considering some of the moving parts. Very similar materials, and finishing processes. I also understand demand plays a large role in the final cost, but certainly there aren't more paintball players using high quality gear than filmmakers.

I'm just saying I understand the frustration of the price of items due to their use being limited, and I mean the amount that they are marked up because of it.

The biggest difference is recreational gear vs professional gear. ANYTHING you can use to generate money and thus requires higher tolerances and features costs more. Final Cut (PRO) vs Final Cut express. PRO tools vs Microsoft music maker. The word "pro" unfortunately has been molested to mean "ours is better than theirs" rather than "hey, this is the stuff! You can actually USE this and it won't break." Its the same thing in a chemistry lab. "Scientific" ovens cost $5000. What does it do over a regular oven? The tolerances of temperature are spot on and will be that way for years. I would be willing to bet "pro" paintball guns which don't jam and operate for years cost considerably more than your standard lot.

 

[Postmaster]

BTW Tolerance is a big factor too when machining. Making a zero backlash Follow focus is no easy task.

Ever shop for snap-on tools?....

Verry good poin Jonathan.

But I can buy a zero backlash, hardened steel, 90 deg. gearbox for 56 Euros off the shelf. It´s not rocket sience, it´s a standard industry part that is used in many hig end machines where no tolerances are allowed like CAD laser cutters and thelike.

Conspiracy mode on:

I think there is a - maybe even unwritten and unspoken - deal going on between gear makers and the studios.

The gear industry charges exorbitant prizes and the studios pay those prizes.- just because they can.

A simple way to keep unwanted competition out of the business.

Now we have a process of democratization of film tools.
Most indifilmers can afford more good gear and cameras than ever bevore, (thou most of it is still overpriced in my book) - and those old structures are crumbling.

Conspiracy mode off.

Fim making isn`t so much a mater of money as it was before, wich is a good thing, cause many talented guys are not stopped by the gear industy prices anymore.

Don´t get me wrong, I realy apreciate the build quality of my Chrossziel mattebox, but the price they charge is obscene (I only could afford it because it was used) and reflects in no way what you get for the money.

To some degree you get what you pay for. But beyond theat degree you only pay for the sticker and the "privilege" to play in the upper league, just because you spend the money and showed them thereby that you are a member of club.

Frank

Oh, by the way. I have a nice set of Snap-On tools of the 60es (got it from my grandpa, who run a EES Garage back than).
Beautyfull machined precession tools that still get the job done after over 45 years.
The new Snap-On stuff is nowhere near that quality and I doubt it will last half as long - but still they want an arm and a leg for it.

 

[Joseph Stunzi]

Frank. I see your point, and raise you one. There are several things which come into play here. DVXuser.com and the emerging film community in general has an interesting cross section of shooters. You have, teens who are learning about the craft, film students who are starting their careers, experienced shooters who may own their own production company and support themselves shooting, and weekend warriors who just love to have new gear and shoot around. The same holds true for Bike manufacturers. You can go to your local bike store and buy a rim for $15. If you look up you will see the "other" rims. Mavec rims which cost more than my whole bike! (and that is for one) So where does the law of diminishing returns kick in? For me, when I am on set and I am getting my full day rate I want gear that is a jewel. If I shooter is getting $800 for a show, why would a critical piece of equipment such as a lens support or a base plate which costs $500-$800 even phase him/her? If it is build correctly (Zacuto) It should last a lifetime.

These are all really valid points Jon!

Speaking of Zacuto and follow focus units, Zacuto's follow focus is the best I've used in the sub $1000 category... oh wait. It's $1500 I think. Getting into Chrosziel territory. Still, it didn't have hardly any "play" at all. I guess that's worth 500 in the long run.

Well considering Zacuto's unique design where you can easily flip sides as well as easily adapt your FF to be a double follow focus on both lightweight and studio configurations... I think it's well worth the investment!

The biggest difference is recreational gear vs professional gear. ANYTHING you can use to generate money and thus requires higher tolerances and features costs more. Final Cut (PRO) vs Final Cut express. PRO tools vs Microsoft music maker. The word "pro" unfortunately has been molested to mean "ours is better than theirs" rather than "hey, this is the stuff! You can actually USE this and it won't break." Its the same thing in a chemistry lab. "Scientific" ovens cost $5000. What does it do over a regular oven? The tolerances of temperature are spot on and will be that way for years. I would be willing to bet "pro" paintball guns which don't jam and operate for years cost considerably more than your standard lot.

My primary focus is Biochemistry and Molecular Biology. I've been doing research for over 7 years now and I will say that if it's a laboratory piece of equipment, the price will be anything but reasonable!

Verry good poin Jonathan.

But I can buy a zero backlash, hardened steel, 90 deg. gearbox for 56 Euros off the shelf. It´s not rocket sience, it´s a standard industry part that is used in many hig end machines where no tolerances are allowed like CAD laser cutters and thelike.

Conspiracy mode on:

I think there is a - maybe even unwritten and unspoken - deal going on between gear makers and the studios.

If you can buy parts and build it yourself, go for it. I mean look at the Hocus Focus for a great example of users building their own. Or my personal favorite, the Carrion monitor!

In all reality, these companies have to make money. They have employees ranging from machinists to sales to even people who take care of fulfilling orders. This is especially true with companies that sell in high volumes.

There isn't an unwritten or unspoken deal going on. In all reality, these pieces take time to design. Something like the Zacuto Z-focus went through multiple revisions and design phases to get it to the product it's like. It also will never break. There are indie solutions out there. Redrock micro is a great example of a indie-focused company that makes products that won't kill your wallet! But don't think that a Preston wireless follow focus should cost less than a microwave! There's a lot of time that went into that device and it's sturdy as hell. I guess I'm saying I don't have a problem paying people for their ingenuity. If you can make an affordable and original design of a follow focus or any piece for that matter, please do! I'll be your first customer and beta tester

 

[JHouser]

If you can buy parts and build it yourself, go for it. I mean look at the Hocus Focus for a great example of users building their own. Or my personal favorite, the Carrion monitor!

There isn't an unwritten or unspoken deal going on. In all reality, these pieces take time to design. Something like the Zacuto Z-focus went through multiple revisions and design phases to get it to the product it's like. It also will never break. There are indie solutions out there. Redrock micro is a great example of a indie-focused company that makes products that won't kill your wallet! But don't think that a Preston wireless follow focus should cost less than a microwave! There's a lot of time that went into that device and it's sturdy as hell. I guess I'm saying I don't have a problem paying people for their ingenuity. If you can make an affordable and original design of a follow focus or any piece for that matter, please do! I'll be your first customer and beta tester

Word-

As a product developer, I often ask why product X is so expensive. I think it is a natural thing to do. I love open source development which is why I think forums like DVXuser.com are so critical. I do think that it is a slippery slope when you start looking at everything with that filter however. Our first product for example, the G35 is the simplest adapter on the market. It consists of a machined aluminum tube and 3 optical components. No batteries, no motors, no wires, no switches, no shims. So from a manufacturing standpoint you could look at it and ask why we are charging $1300 for an adapter right? Well, our screen took us 3 years to develop. Building a static screen without grain is no easy task. It is also a very time consuming operation. We designed the functionality of the G35 to be the most user friendly durable 35mm adapter on the market. As a result it also happens to be the simplest. So sometimes the most simple solution may seem like the cheapest to manufacture. However the development to make them simple is never cheap. The payoff for us is that we can ship and adapter out and be confident that it won't come back with a broken knob or a disconnected wire. Just like Zacuto, we built it to last. The customer gets an adapter which works every time. So wouldn't that be more valuable than a microprocessor controlled switchable adapter with led's and blinking lights to remind you to turn it off? We can then spend money on custom designing every mount and button to work exactly how we want, rather than buying some cheap 3rd party part off of the shelf. I know when our users open the box to their new G35 they never feel they were cheated by shotty workmanship. The reason most of the film tools discussed earlier in this thread are affordable is because the designs were based off of innovative designs. So when you "borrow" from someone else's design, you take a huge shortcut. The consumer wins short term, but what price is paid in the long term for future technological developments. Patents are supposed to protect this, but they only stifle open source development and become a "land grab".

On a side note, this is what I have been stoked about lately
http://www.buglabs.net/products
Now we can develop our OWN products.

 

[CB_Radio]

My primary focus is Biochemistry and Molecular Biology. I've been doing research for over 7 years now

Aren't you 18 years old? You've been doing Biochemistry and Molecular Biology research since you were 11?

 

[Shibuya Oboya]

Points all well taken, and someone like me who definitely let's frustration cloud reason, needs to be reminded from time to time. Personally, and probably a lot of us on here, look at companies like Cinemek though, and are ecstatic at the price ranges their products exist in, with quality gear. I ordered my G35 last week, and can't wait til it gets here.

But, equipment made by a specific industry, makes it in certain sizes that other industries don't use. Like 15mm and 19mm rods. and it's not just film, it's everyone. make it so you have to buy it from them, since no one else has the exact right thing. You can't build an apple computer yourself for $300

 

[Joseph Stunzi]

Aren't you 18 years old? You've been doing Biochemistry and Molecular Biology research since you were 11?

I was the youngest person granted permission to do medical grade research at age 12 at Emory Crawford Long Hospital. I've participated in numerous science competitions with research involving cardiology, cancer, poultry science, microbiology, and biochemistry. Science is science! I also won the national science fair in 8th grade and was interviewed by Katie Couric on the Today Show for this win.

But to put it simply... I've been doing lab/medical research since I was 12. I haven't done Biochem research for 6 years. Only 2... well now 3. Anyway numbers numbers.