Ready to purchase 2 Z1's

Re: Ready to purchase 2 Z1's

Thanks for the Reply and attention Mr. Eldred (This is sign of respect).

I've to disagree in terms of the SD days rapidly coming to a close.

I've spend thousands of dollars in equipment monthly, Apple G5's, Xserve, Xserve Raid, and have yet to be interested in an HD display for home use, they are simply to expensive. The fact is, that after the HD TV set, I will would be stock with something that just plays SD, because your local video store does not carry anything that it's compatible with it.

I LOVE TOYS! But the simple fact is, that the Z1, and HD is just like the Apple Newton Message Pad, way ahead of it's time! SD is still here for at least another 5 years, in which time I will have a great HD camera to shoot with, 24p, DVCPROHD, the whole works.

This cameras are tools, and the XL2 still seems to be able to give me the performance I need, for the next 1 1/2 years. By then HD cameras would have matured, and certainly the medium with which it would be carried, P2 Cards, Hard Drives, or tape.

Yet I'm still undecided!
 
Re: Ready to purchase 2 Z1's

..i disagree with some of these statements made there ejody. but .. oh well. to each their own.  enjoy the sony hdv cam. im glad it works well for you.
 
Re: Ready to purchase 2 Z1's

It is NOT in beta testing phase. I and a lot of other guys have been shooting a lot of network stuff with the Z1U with excellent results. (And we own and shoot with F900 CineAltas too.)

The jury is NOT out.

Stick with SD at your own peril.


:-)
 
Re: Ready to purchase 2 Z1's

[quote author=jnolla link=board=sony;num=1107145163;start=60#60 date=02/19/05 at 12:20:28]Thanks for the Reply and attention Mr. Eldred (This is sign of respect).

I've to disagree in terms of the SD days rapidly coming to a close. [/quote]

Nothing personal jnolla but I'm sure that you (or I, most here for that matter) are hardly capable of producing anywhere similar test to Ejody.  You are entitled to disagree but the envidence you put forward is merely an opinion based on trends you have noticed.  While Ejody's advice is also an opinion, his credibility you must take into consideration as he has the experience in the feild and obviously the knowledge to back his test and his words.

Charlie White also did a review and gave kudos to Sony for a CF24 way back in the day saying it emulated the film look.  Shortly after the common comment was that it's not 24P.  Well, no one is bashing the DVX but not to recognize that HD is better than SD (delivery medium, NLE compatiblity or other issues at the moment solved or not), it's like saying that you prefer to shoot using a VHS camera that is the same price as  a DV camera if the VHS camera had 24P shooting modes... ??!  4 times the relsolution!!

I agree the DVX was an excellent camera when it was released and for it's day, and even today, it's it great for many applications.  However, if you can aquire HD footage vs SD footage at about the same price, I don't get why everone keeps getting hung up on all the objections saying oh "it's HDV", "it's new", "it's unproven", "it's not real 24P"... well so was DV back when the Beta SP world was king and I grew tired of all the Beta SP people slamming DV.  The workflow evolved, the format grew in popularity and probably most us here have own 3 times as many DV cams as we have every owned Beta cams.

Remember jnolla, 24p or not, at the end of the day, VHS is analog, DV is SD, and HDV is HD... accept the change or not, the choice is yours.  Have fun...  ???  kind of sucks doesn't it.  ;D
 
Re: Ready to purchase 2 Z1's

This is an interesting debate. I would venture a guess that most of the people who have weighed in regarding the Z1 and HD have never had any direct experience with either, and for those that have their opinions are not taken seriously by the DVX faithful.

Personally, I could not care less which camera is the best. As many of you continually point out “it is just a tool.” I hope you do not really believe that. There are really only two ways to make money in the entertainment industry, you can create a look [a story, type of animation or lighting technique, color correction] that differentiates you from the rest of us and therefore charge more for it. Alternatively, you can produce the same quality of product as everyone else more efficiently [cheaper] therefore potentially making more money. That is really about it.

The problem is that all the same people, using all the same equipment, telling predominantly all the same stories, are producing all of the independent films. Therefore, the only differentiating factor is price for which most of us practically give away our creativity for a chance to produce anything…

I am a little confused as to why people who claim to be so pro film seem so reluctant to embrace HD. 1920x1080 transfers to 2048x1556 much better then 720x486 period. Even given the fact that the Z1 is compressed it is probably comparable to super 16. It is not my intention to be critical of anyone’s opinions [of coarse you know what is coming] BUT – I think that the debate picked up quite a bit when Panasonic leaked the release of a new HD camera at NAB. DVX users certainly cannot be accused of not having brand loyalty.

I digress; the point to my diatribe is that 99% of us will not make the transition to HD any time soon. For the one percent that do they will have a decidedly strong competitive advantage over the rest of those that do not. HD provides a great opportunity to create a “look” you can sell. The challenge with HD and HDV is the cost efficiency of it, though there seem to be many tools becoming available so that you can produce it almost as effectively as SD.

I know the rebuttal to this suggestion is that there is not enough HD out there and the deliverable is still SD. It does not really matter, not very many people have 35mm projectors in their homes either but they shoot the majority of films on film.. ::)
 
Re: Ready to purchase 2 Z1's

Good comments and analysis, Chuck.

The only thing I'd add is this important consideration that some folks are missing: shooting on HD now (regardless of format so long as it's 1080) FUTURE-PROTECTS your product. The world will be HD before too much longer. Does anyone really want to be watching SD programs on an HD monitor-- or creating HD programs (even shooting a wedding) that in a few short years (or months) will look incredibly outdated?

The Z1U, as an example, provides a means to future-protect for a very small price.

Both ABC News and CBS News-- longtime Betacam devotees-- are already making the shift to HD. They see the handwriting on the wall. (The wall is covered with it!)

The message is clear: Start moving in the direction of the future today or you will be left behind. And the future is clearly HD.

Heck... it's the present.
 
Re: Ready to purchase 2 Z1's

I do take Ejody, comments, and teachings on this matters with lots of Respect. I don't think in my lifetime, I would be as talented as he is! ;)

This is why I used "Mr.", it wasn't in no way intended as a form of sarcasm.

But just as business stand point, and I'm not talking, artistic stand point, I feel SD is not dead, and though HD is a good advertsing tool, for what I intend to use the cameras, it doesn't seem that necessary; But I do want it!

Is the Z1 the way to go? I don't really know! I'm just concerned about how highly compressed this format is when working in post.
 
Re: Ready to purchase 2 Z1's

Don’t get me wrong, just like VHS is still being used even though DVD has clearly out grown it, SD will be around long after HD is accepted into the mainstream. In addition, HD of all flavors requires a lot more forethought regarding lighting; postproduction etc., more than you may be capable or willing to deal with.

If you feel your choice is between SD or HD, I would suggest you attend NAB [if possible] and compare the cameras you are interested in and ask the manufacturers of those cameras questions about workflow related issues. If the reply you get sounds too convoluted or not satisfactory, you should probably go with SD. In that case, I would go with the DVX100a.

If there reply sounds reasonable, visit the booths of the vendors they recommended and get a demonstration of how well all of this works together. Keep in mind that tradeshows are full of vaporware, but if your comfortable with the demo’s and you can see a way to develop your own great look – then take the plunge into HD.

Also, try to keep all of this in perspective – none of us are curing cancer here. The decision on which camera you purchase does not need to be that difficult. All of the camera’s you mentioned in your initial post will work just fine. Don’t beat yourself up over it…

Good luck
 
Re: Ready to purchase 2 Z1's

Jody Eldred

You are shooting in CF modes as I understand. Even when you shoot in CF modes the footage is still considered 1080i? I thought the resolution is reduced when in CF modes and the footage ends up being progressive.
 
Re: Ready to purchase 2 Z1's

[quote author=Ejody link=board=sony;num=1107145163;start=60#66 date=02/19/05 at 17:32:51]Good comments and analysis, Chuck.

The only thing I'd add is this important consideration that some folks are missing: shooting on HD now (regardless of format so long as it's 1080) FUTURE-PROTECTS your product. The world will be HD before too much longer. Does anyone really want to be watching SD programs on an HD monitor-- or creating HD programs (even shooting a wedding) that in a few short years (or months) will look incredibly outdated?

The Z1U, as an example, provides a means to future-protect for a very small price.[/quote]

That's very true.But also factor in the $3,900 deck.Do you really want to use your camera as a deck? And are you the one watching these outdated wedding vids?If you have already shot,edited and burned a dvd of a wedding for someone, you should have made your money on that job by then and moved on. I certainly dont want to create a log jam in a few years and have to revisit these clients and give them their vid in true HD.By then my software and computer will more than likely be upgraded and then you'll have the whole mess of redoing old videos.On top of having to deal with new clients.Or turning them down because your still dealing with clients from 2 years ago.Not a whole lot of people are asking for their wedding shot in HD.Most dont even know it's possible.Brides have a hell of a lot more things to worry about than this issue.Most brides shop for a videographer based on their work and word of mouth., I.E. their reputation,like all things, you can either put together a great video or you can't.How can you promise something that you can't even do yet (HD-DVD)?                                                                             And what are you gonna charge them for it?I'm sure they'll love hearing that.If you have to reedit something you already did in SD, is it really worth the cost to your clients?



(edited to fix a quote/unquote formatting error in the original message, no content has been changed) - BG
 
Re: Ready to purchase 2 Z1's

to all you Dp's, directors, and filmmakers in general, me included.  What are we doing?  What the hell is going on?  Who cares what you shoot on, besides YOU I mean.  NOBODY.  We need to get over ourselves and how cool our new toy is.  I don't care if you use a DVX, a Z1, a CineAlta, whatever.  DO these cameras make you better.  NO,  Do these cameras make your film better? Absolutly not.  Does the audience care what you shot your film in? to be truthful, if it is good, then NO.  I don't care about res charts, production specs, I don't even care about the opinions that everybody seems to throw around here like discarded trash (including my own).  Stop listening to the hype people.  Stop listening to the companies dellude you with specs to make you buy more and more.  "you need to upgrade your camera, even though you did just six months ago, and here are the reasons why".  Panasonic, Sony, Canon, they all have similar goals.  To make money.  How do they make money, by releasing more and more cameras.  Do they release what filmakers want? sometimes, but mostly they just leave you wanting more.  So where does it stop?  Do we need 24p?  Do we need 1080i?  Do we need 720p?  do we need cinegamma, and cineframe?  To each his own.  Pick a camera, it doesn't matter which one, they all take pictures.  make the best film you can (because I can guarantee you right now that the camer is not going to be the limiting factor in your film making abilities, unless you are only using the camera becasue it has great "spec".)  Stop worshiping your cameras, these formums are getting worse than religeous fenatics on a sunday evening.  Don't listen to my opinion, don't listen to "world famous DP's opinions" don't listen to your neighbors opinions.  That is what they are, truely and utterly biased (100%) OPINIONS.  Stop doing Tests for GODS sake.  Go out and shoot something.

Now feel free to rant on me all you like, becasue I am just as guilty as the rest of you.  I am just as biased and  just as hypocritical.  But for me, enough is enough.  We are ARtists.  Nobody told  Raphael what brush to paint with.  Nobody told Marcel Dushamp what media to use.  Nobody told Duane Hanson what kind of plaster to use when sculpting lifelike human beings.  If film making continues the way that it is going, with corporations dictating what cameras should be used, what the film should look, then film making will be a dead art form, more than it already is.  This is not Sony's art, nor panasonics, nor canons, it is your own, so make it your own.

Now I sound like my photography professor, so I will take my own advice and stop giving it.
 
Re: Ready to purchase 2 Z1's

Hello Jody

Got the pleasure to see a footage of you talking about the Z1 the other day and now if I may, I 'd like to ask few questions as you seems to know what you are talking about and have years of experience.

I hope that my questions will also help other people that are worried about jumping to HD(V). I'm no Director or DOP... just passionate about movies and lucky enough to have succeeded a bit in my current business which allow me to put a bit of money down to finance a project that will mainly help young independant movie makers to start working on some project without worrying about camera, hardware etc...

I do have a lot experience in numeric images though, and one thing I know for sure, the more pixel you get the better the definition is on your final print so I guess the rule apply to video. so I won't need to be conviced on jumping to HD.

Anyway, as we have a lot think about and pay for, our attention turned onto the FX1E(pal version) as it seems that the Z1 is only offering better sounds features and mutli country format. we don't really need the sound feature as it is recorded on DAT.

here are my questions, mainly on FX1E.

- I could mistaken on Z1 vs FX1E so can you to tell me if Z1 is way better than FX1E and why?

- I read on this forum that FX1 (E) had no downconvertion
The_Video_Guy said:
FX1 Major setbacks are no downconvert to 4x3 from HDV 16x9.
IS that True? No offense to The_Video_Guy  I could have missinterpreted, maybe downconvert is possible only from 16:9 HDV to 16:9 SD. just need clarification.

- If there is a downconvert on FX1E, is it better to use the downconvert on the camera or do it in post.

- CF25, is it the same as the frame mode on XL1s or is it better looking? and in your eyes does it the trick of "film-like"?

- Talking CF25, do you think it's better to use a product like DVfilm maker to deinterlace rather than using CF25? Just a bit worried of a software trying to deinterlace mpeg. being a software developer myself, I know how compression works, and it seems to me that the sony will have better infos to deinterlace with CF25 than a software after compression.

- If you were on a tight budget, but with time in front of you, would you wait for panasonic or canon answer to sony's HDV or do you have full faith in what sony did? therefore no need to wait...

- Have you personally seen Z1/Fx1 footage printed on 35mm and what's your opinion?

- You said that mattebox was a "MustHave", I heard that no mattebox was fitting the Sony yet, so of course I'm confused because on the video that I've of you and your Z1, you seemed to have one fitting alright... Where you get from?

Well I guess that's it, hopeI'm not bothering you to much with my question, but it's not everyday that we someone with your experience on a forum...

thank you

Anthony
 
16Re: Ready to purchase 2 Z1's

16Re: Ready to purchase 2 Z1's

[quote author=Dremmwel link=board=sony;num=1107145163;start=60#73 date=02/20/05 at 13:55:09]- I read on this forum that FX1 (E) had no downconvertion
The_Video_Guy said:
FX1 Major setbacks are no downconvert to 4x3 from HDV 16x9.
IS that True? No offense to The_Video_Guy  I could have missinterpreted, maybe downconvert is possible only from 16:9 HDV to 16:9 SD. just need clarification.[/quote]

Hey Anthony, ... no offense taken. I should have been more clear.

The FX1 does do a downconvert to 4x3 from 16x9 HDV but it is only widescreen image in SD... does that make sense? The Z1 one has the option of actually cutting out the center and you can either have SD widescreen or SD 4x3 that fills the frame and cuts off the left and right sides so you get a full screen image.
 
Re: Ready to purchase 2 Z1's

Thanks The_Video_Guy, maybe you could also answer some of the question that I asked to Jody, because I need to feel confortable with the FX1E, if not I'll have to go with the Z1 but the Z1 is out of stock everywhere in UK... and from what I heard from 2 different shops, the next shipping of Z1 has already been presold...So I'll have to wait at least 3 month...GREAT :'(
 
Re: Ready to purchase 2 Z1's

[quote author=The_Video_Guy link=board=sony;num=1107145163;start=60#64 date=02/19/05 at 15:48:47]
 Well, no one is bashing the DVX but not to recognize that HD is better than SD (delivery medium, NLE compatiblity or other issues at the moment solved or not), it's like saying that you prefer to shoot using a VHS camera that is the same price as  a DV camera if the VHS camera had 24P shooting modes... ??!  4 times the relsolution!![/quote]

nothing towards you personally video guy, but this is somthing i read commonly , and i just dont get it..theres a growing number of people who are baffled at the fact that many people embracing the new sonys cannot understand that people not embracing them DO NOT have a problem with HD vs SD. they simply have a problem with  HDV vs standard HD compression.  why is that so hard for everyone to understand. seriously.. WE ALL WANT HD.. we just want real tried and tested and reliable real video/audio standard HD compression and workflow to go along with it. not HDV and the compromises it presents  to the video and audio encoding. ..and real 24p. because it not about a "film look" ...its ultimately about actually replacing film or allowing for a seamless and excellent film transfer with the same exact motion characteristics.

i definitely really agree with scharky on alot of his points hes made in this thread, but theres also a point of if your going to buy new equipment you want to make sure it will work well for what you want to use it for. nobody wants a paintbrush that leaves brush hairs in your masterpeice or snaps in half when you least expect it. HDV doesnt add up for me. if it meets others needs/wants i think thats great. but i feel fine about waiting for a camera that lets me use HD in a more proffesional workflow.  i think the real question is.. "are people saying they prefer mpg2 video and compressed audio and jumbled up fake 24p vs  DVCPRO HD with uncompresed audio and real 24p?" because its really not a big deal for most of us to just wait for the second which comes out soon enough to make it not work taking a loss on the first on resale for us. ..its not at all an issue of SD vs HD. its all about HD and the quality of it and its accompanying audio and camera features.  I really like the new sonys.. honeslty, i do. i just like what i beleived panasonic would bring out more. and sure theres always something better, but if anyone wants to talk about "futureproofing" you might want to start out with captuering your material on a professional format camera that gives you prooven and reliably proffessional results and workflow that are worth saving to begin with. i dont doubt that well see many great things from the sonys, and well see good stuffs from the new pani as well, cause like scharky said in the end its all about the artist, but hey, can you blame me if a want a more sturdy brush and some waterproof paints?
 
Re: Ready to purchase 2 Z1's

im just a monkey on a typewriter ..i figured if i just kept on posting i would eventually make sense.

..really im just frustrated with all this i guess. i know that you of all people share in my frustration. you are like simba vs the hyenas in the end of the lion king. hokey, sure.. but that image just seems to sum it up in my mind.

help us panasonic wan.. you are our only hope.
 
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