Stephen Mick
Totally Usable
You have zero evidence or support to back up a claim like this. Please refrain from submitting your opinion as fact.
Re: Profits
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You have zero evidence or support to back up a claim like this. Please refrain from submitting your opinion as fact.
The primary erroneous assumption on the part of the OP was that there was no price drop at all. Sony, and all manufacturers, announce MSRP and then set a minimum advertised or minimum selling price. At intro, Sony had not yet announced a minimum selling price. Obviously for competitive purposes, resellers will generally choose to sell at the minimum price in order to be competitive.
Rick Burnett
Section Moderator
The *fact* is there is a substantial history of this practice. Not just at Sony either, but at other companies as well. I did not pay MSRP for my AF100 either. No one pays $16k for the F3. Comparing this to Red is an exception rather than the rule. In fact, I'd say Red really isn't the best example to quote either. There is NO S35 camera from Red that hits $6k, period. They've moved their bottom bar in the S35 realm to the F3 territory and arguably more. Further, there is NO indication of when a Red S35 Epic-S is even going to be purchasable. None. EVERY date milestone has come and gone for Red for the most part so no one really has a clue. They could change the price *again*, change features, or even drop the Epic-S altogether. None of this would surprise me. I would MUCH rather have Sony announce a higher price then bring it down then do what Red did to me. I was saving up for the Scarlet S35 when the brain was $7k and then they upped it to $12k as the Epic-S and that just put it out of my price range.
Barry_Green
Moderator
EXACTLY.
There has been no "price drop". The FS-100 carries an MSRP (without lens) of $5,850. Look it up yourself:
http://pro.sony.com/bbsc/ssr/cat-broadcastcameras/cat-nxcam/
The "street price" is $4995. Just like the EX1R has an MSRP of $7790, the same MSRP as the original EX1 had and has had since 2008. Street price is $6300-ish.
HPX370 has an MSRP of $11,700. Street price is about $9200.
This is all much ado about nothing, folks. The OP apparently didn't understand how pro video manufacturers list an MSRP and then give their resellers an MAP to work with (Minimum Advertised Price) which equates to the street price.
There has been no price drop.
I was.
I think if you asked Sony or Arri to defend how grotesquely overpriced the F65 or Alexa are, this is the argument they'd use. I don't believe it, since Epic has a market no larger and a price much much smaller, but it's the one they'd use.
But the $5k prosumer camcorder market? While it's obviously not iPod-sized, does anyone really believe it's "increased costs due to small production runs" small? I don't.
Rick Burnett
Section Moderator
R&D of company A does not equal R&D of company B. I've been in the industry long enough to know that. Given how fast Sony is bringing things to market, they could have spent a lot more R&D in parallel then say Red that has been working at a slower pace redefining their camera over and over and over again. Sure, I look at the price tag of the F65 or Alexa and think it's expensive, but even as a CMOS chip designer, I've seen stuff that goes beyond this that are used for incredibly low yields. There are so many variables, I would not even attempt to try and guess at the pricing schemes.
I also look at it this way, if it was a lot cheaper to do, a LOT of other companies that are not the big named companies would be jumping all over this opportunity. But, like Red, once they get in there, a LOT of issues can happen. Don't forget all the issues Red went through with the Epic, and new ASICs, and problems that they never actually divulged publicly (just announced they had to deal with a big one on). I know *A LOT* of people who are still scared about the Epic for one reason, the Red One track record. But Red is aware of that as well.
And yes, I ABSOLUTELY believe that cost increase is SUBSTANTIAL due to small production runs. I'm also a firm believer that the sensor in the F3 is hand picked to be the best of the best, and those that are slightly less as good probably go in the FS100. Not that it matters to me, but this is common practice in the microelectronics field. And, CMOS cost is VERY VERY high ESPECIALLY at these sizes. There is a reason these companies don't tell you the sensor yield because I am SURE they get a lot of parts that don't pass QA. CMOS has that much variance due to just physical process variation. The larger the sensor, the more chance of problems as well.
Barry_Green
Moderator
Who says they're overpriced?
When you have a five-month waiting list for people to buy your product at retail, that means it's *underpriced*, if anything.
Well, the harsh truth is, whether people believe something or not, doesn't change the underlying truth of the thing.
Do you know how many $5k prosumer camcorders are sold? As compared to ipods? Fortunately the manufacturers have released some numbers so we can compare.
HVX200 - since Dec. 2005, they've sold approximately 100,000 worldwide. That's five and a half years to sell 100,000. Sixty six months, or about 1500 per month. And that is probably the best-selling prosumer camcorder ever released.
In that same timeframe Apple has announced that they've sold, worldwide, over 228,465,000 iPods. Two hundred and twenty eight million, in 5.5 years. Or, doing the math, 3,461,590 per month. As compared to 1500 per month for the pro camcorder. Is that a little bit bigger market? I believe so.
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