C200: Raw workflow & LUTs

fhammond

Well-known member
I’m confused about the color management workflow for C200 raw files. Specifically, what LUT to use.

Canon has a document here about post-production and the C200:
http://www.learn.usa.canon.com/resources/articles/2017/eos-c200-post-production-brief.shtml

However, the document primarily deals with a workflow where you’re using Canon Raw Development to transcode raw into ProRes 4444 and, at the same time, choose color space and gamma. If you do that, then it’s simple to pick the appropriate LUT. Canon has updated LUTs for the C200 here:
https://www.canon.co.uk/support/con...type=download&softwaredetailid=tcm:14-1578818

If you’re using raw directly in your NLE (I’m playing with the beta of Resolve 14), what LUT should you use? All of them assume a color space and gamma and - I think - a raw doesn’t have either.

I thought that perhaps Cinema Gamut and Canon Log 2 were the “native” color space and gamma for C200 raw files. However, that doesn’t seem to be the case: if I take a C200 raw file, use Canon Raw Development to export two versions - one using Canon Log 2 and one using Canon Log 3 - then put all three files (the two ProRes and one raw) into Resolve, all three files look different. The Canon Log 2 files and raw files look the closest but they don’t match. This suggests that either there’s no “native” gamma for raw or it’s something other than what I’m trying.

Ok, since writing the questions above, I think I might have figured this out. If I put a Red or Sony raw file into Resolve, clicking on the Camera Raw button on the left side of the Color screen shows a panel where I can alter the settings of the raw file - including setting color space and gamma. If I click on a Canon Raw Light file and try to do the same thing, it doesn’t work: there are no raw settings at all. It’s as if Resolve can play a C200 raw but can’t do anything else with it.

It seems we’ll have to wait for NLEs to catch up with C200 raw, or use Canon Raw Development to transcode to ProRes (and pick color space and gamut). Any thoughts?
 
Anyone got any ideas on this? Using Resolve is appealing because it's avoid the cost of transcoding and storing additional files but it's still not clear to me the right workflow in Resolve.
 
Anyone got any ideas on this? Using Resolve is appealing because it's avoid the cost of transcoding and storing additional files but it's still not clear to me the right workflow in Resolve.

I don't think many people, besides you, have the camera yet. I get it tomorrow, so I will gladly explore this with you. Maybe Loren from Canon can chime in?
 
I don't think many people, besides you, have the camera yet. I get it tomorrow, so I will gladly explore this with you. Maybe Loren from Canon can chime in?

Thanks! Yes, I'm crossing my fingers that Loren has some ideas on this. I posted to the Resolve forum too.
 
Fhammond,

I'm waiting on official word but my findings have been similar to yours. Looks a lot like Canon Log 2 / Cinema Gamut but sightly different than those files created from Cinema RAW Developer (it almost looked like a video range / full range swap)

My workflow so far has been creating DPXs from Cinema RAW Developer so I know exactly what I'm looking at but I will keep everyone updated when I hear back.

Regardless my workflow usually includes utilizing a color space transform to move from Cinema Gamut to BT.709 - and then manually dialing in my contrast with curves and lift/gamma/gain.

----

Loren Simons
Sr. Engineer, Field Applications
Canon USA

Disclaimer: I am here to continue being a helpful and informative part of the DVXuser community - as I have been in one capacity or another for the last ten years. I am not here to comment on future products, features, or firmwares.
 
Thanks for the response. Good to know I'm not doing anything wrong.

I'm interested in your use of DPX. I'm not very familiar with the format. What benefits does it have over ProRes? Also, you mentioned doing a color space transform. Is that in CRD? Or once you're in your NLE?
 
Fhammond,

DPX is an uncompressed format - it is very beefy in both file size and data. We can export 10 or 16 Bit DPX's from Cinema RAW Developer (the 12 Bit DPX format is not as common) and it, as well as OpenEXR, are the ideal formats when trying to maintain ultimate quality and control.

ProRes 4444 is a compressed format, although a very efficient and high performing one at that. It's just finding the right balance with your time/system/money.

I've built some personal LUTs based on the Canon produced LUTS that just do the color space transform and leave the gamma intact. There are other pieces of software like Lattice and LUTCalc that can do similar functions - and in DaVinci 14 there is now the ability to do Color Space Transforms using the OpenFX panel. This transform utility does include Cinema Gamut as a source option.

I prefer this method for most of my work.

----

Loren Simons
Sr. Engineer, Field Applications
Canon USA

Disclaimer: I am here to continue being a helpful and informative part of the DVXuser community - as I have been in one capacity or another for the last ten years. I am not here to comment on future products, features, or firmwares.
 
Thanks, Loren. I'll try out the DPX workflow.

Now that more people have their C200s, I'm wondering what people's workflow - particularly regarding LUTs - is. I've tried Canon's LUT, LUTs from Ntown (http://ntown.at/2017/02/20/list-of-most-popular-canon-sony-panasonic-camera-base-luts/; I found out about these from Cloakroom Media's great C200 review on Vimeo: https://vimeo.com/225799286), and the standard Alexa LogC to Rec709 LUT that's built-in to Resolve. I'm getting good results and still have a lot of playing to do but it would be great to know what others are doing.
 
hey fhammond, what sort of lut or gamut are you using for 'in camera monitoring'? cinema gamut/production camera? like what everyone is using on their C300 ii more or less or...?

and since you played with a couple of LUTS already on your NLE what is your go-to or favorite at the moment? what looks the most filmic to you? what do you think of the canon raw files personally? does it have more detail and how is the highlight roll off? also would love to hear your thoughts on the raw 10bit vs raw 12bit.
 
Fhammond,

I'm waiting on official word but my findings have been similar to yours. Looks a lot like Canon Log 2 / Cinema Gamut but sightly different than those files created from Cinema RAW Developer (it almost looked like a video range / full range swap)

My workflow so far has been creating DPXs from Cinema RAW Developer so I know exactly what I'm looking at but I will keep everyone updated when I hear back.

Loren, any update on this? Using Resolve's color transform from Cinema Gamut to 709 and manually addressing the curve is an interesting idea, but it doesn't seem that Resolve's gamut transform is accurate either (at least not consistent with what the Canon software is doing.)

Thanks.
 
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