RAW vs. REDCODE RAW

Yeah, thanks for the clearing up.
But would it be possible to have a variable REDCODE compression?
And as mentionned, how about the 4k workflow?
And I also would like to know if "Is it correct that the 2k RAW workflows are using the windowed mode?"

Thanks a lot for the time you take to check here.

antoine
 
Graeme_Nattress said:
And it's an early build of the code, with a special new feature we're testing. And not, you can't ask what that is, but I think you'll like it!

Graeme
Click to expand...

Graeme is one of my new Superheros.. I mean, he was always a hero to me but after seeing his Redcode results he went 50 notches up in my books.
 
laboprod said:
Yeah, thanks for the clearing up.
But would it be possible to have a variable REDCODE compression?
And as mentionned, how about the 4k workflow?

(...)

antoine
Click to expand...
You are the third one (at least) referring this here. This 4K interest is a good sign! Crossing the other threads out there but in this same boards and RED sub-forum it is possible to understand the meaning of this my mention...
 
Thanks for all the input Graeme, Jim, Stuart. I think everyone appreciates the time you put into developing the camera and keeping up with all these threads. I just have a couple follow ups. Do you have to shoot windowed for 2k raw like jbeale said? Does the camera need to process the image in someway for the output to be 2k?

Also, not that the last question wasn't one you didn't want to answer at this point, but I think the next one will be. I was also wondering if you guys don't have a device planned that can capture raw images from the camera. I noticed that the red flash and drive were not stated as options for a 2k Raw capture? I'm guessing that 4k raw was out of the picture right now but I was wondering about 2k raw. I thought from what I saw in the threads that as of now, redcode raw was compressing 4k down to 60MB a sec and I thought 2k raw was around 95MB. Is that right? Thanks again guys.
 
4K raw will be around 30 MB/s. Yes to recording 2K raw onboard. 2K raw is windowed, 2K RGB can be scaled or windowed.
 
4k REDCODE RAW will possibly be around 30MB/s, even if Jim wrote also that this image was a REDCODE of 2.5 MB/frame, which is more than 30MB/s.
But 2k WINDOWED uncompressed RAW would, I think, be around the 95-100MB/s as SF Geek has mentionnned.

For now it seems to be sure that 2k REDCODE RAW will be possible to record on the RED-DRIVE (up to 60fps), but not sure for 4k REDCODE RAW. But if variable REDCODE is possible, you could compress 4 time more than for 2k REDCODE RAW and record 4k REDCODE RAW.
Of course it will depends on the speed of the HDD, which is behind the RED-DRIVE...what would be the highest bandwith possible on those?
 
No onboard uncompressed recording. Uncompressed 2K (2048 x 1152 for RED) RAW is 108 MB/s in 16-bit at 24 fps, or 81 MB/s in 12-bit.

Onboard recording will go all the way up to 4K (with REDCODE compression).
 
robl,

I might have misunderstood Graeme post, but for me it soundes like only REDCODE recording will be available onboard, and it seems to me pretty hard to have a single 2.5'' HDD which could handle around 100MB/s....
When I see "uncompressed" RAW there is only mention of high speed data port to an external custom disk array or very large RAM disk...No RED-DRIVE or RED-FLASH...
Stuart English said:
SF Geek,

There are four available 2K workflows -

2K RAW, compressed with REDCODE. Recorded to RED-DRIVE or REDFLASH.
This can follow the workflow you outlined. Frame rates - variable 1 - 60fps.

2K RAW, uncompressed. Recorded via high speed data port to an external custom disk array or very large RAM disk. Frame rates - variable 1 - 120fps.

2K RGB, compressed with REDCODE. Recorded to RED-DRIVE or REDFLASH.
This can follow the workflow you outlined. Frame rates - variable 1 - 60fps.

2K RGB, uncompressed. Recorded to external disk array over modified dual link HD-SDI. Frame rates 24 or 25fps. Also available, 2K cropped to 1080p.
Click to expand...
 
Oh, sorry it is your post that I haven't understood.... I thought you were saying: No, onboard uncompressed is possible.

We both agree, so it means I have understood Graeme post (as english is not my mother tongue :-)

But are you sure that onboard REDCODE RAW would be possible at 4K...because I haven't read any confirmation from the RED team about that... sorry if it is stupid question...
 
Jannard said:
We still need to push this testing further (green screen with David Stump is next) but there was quite a bit of celebration going on last night.
Click to expand...

I'm mystified...

If REDCODE compressed passes the blue screen/green screen tests (please, please do both!) then I can't see why everyone is still obsessed with uncompressed captures.

If you can't visually see the difference in "normal footage", it color corrects well with the same dynamic range, and doesn't impact a key, then why bother? I ask this as someone who has done his fair share of uncompressed 8 and 10 bit captures off of the Sony 900 and even the HVX.

99% of the people who talk the loudest about uncompressed capturing have never actually done it, and of those that have done it, 99% of them wish they didn't need to.
 
laboprod: English is not my native tongue either, so I could probably have been more clear.

I worked the RED IBC booth were the announcement was made for 4K onboard recording.

The website has not yet been updated to reflect this new feature. Graeme / Stuart / Jim have confirmed this (here on dvxuser)


Jim: the main reason (imho) would be to do the higher framerates like 2K at 120 fps or 4K at 60 fps (which you can't do onboard)

Then I can imagine some devices that might want to use that port to store the data directly to a network (attached storage) for in-studio applications and so forth
 
Jannard said:
We did some direct comparison tests last night of 4k RAW footage vs. 4k REDCODE RAW footage. Both were processed and corrected the same way exactly. Then we projected both for a side by side (literally) on a 4k projector at a premium screening room in Burbank. Good news. It was virtually impossible to tell the difference, even under the closet scrutiny. We still need to push this testing further (green screen with David Stump is next) but there was quite a bit of celebration going on last night. Basically we were comparing a 27MB per frame image capture vs. 2.5MB per frame. Recording 4k REDCODE RAW to your under $1000 RED DRIVE will serve you well.

Jim
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Jim, this is Great news!
I'm very excited to hear this!
I've been quietly following the development of RED1 for a while now and am very excited about the project.

I didn't post much on the forum lately because I was working intensively on the development of two feature films and a series of virtual instruments that now after over two years of development is about to finally be shipping...

Anyway, Congratulations for an amazing series of accomplishments and achievements!

I've heard there's an LA screening, but missed the reservations deadline, so I don't know the scheduled date and time. I'd very much like to be there for the screening. I have believed in this project from the very beginning and feel very much connected to it. I know the screening is very close to where I live and wouldn't want to miss it. If possible, please let me know where and when.
Thanks, and once again congratulations and :dankk2: for the frequent updates!
 
Jim Arthurs said:
I'm mystified...

If REDCODE compressed passes the blue screen/green screen tests (please, please do both!) then I can't see why everyone is still obsessed with uncompressed captures.

If you can't visually see the difference in "normal footage", it color corrects well with the same dynamic range, and doesn't impact a key, then why bother? I ask this as someone who has done his fair share of uncompressed 8 and 10 bit captures off of the Sony 900 and even the HVX.

99% of the people who talk the loudest about uncompressed capturing have never actually done it, and of those that have done it, 99% of them wish they didn't need to.
Click to expand...
Amen to that! I was thinking exactly the same thing. Why waste masses of disk space on a ton of unnecessary data? Fingers crossed for the green/blue screen tests...
 
robl said:

Jim: the main reason (imho) would be to do the higher framerates like 2K at 120 fps or 4K at 60 fps (which you can't do onboard)

Then I can imagine some devices that might want to use that port to store the data directly to a network (attached storage) for in-studio applications and so forth
Click to expand...

Thanks, I forgot about the higher framerate issue... Is this a failing of the on-board compression chips or a failing of the on-board recording media speed, I wonder? If it's just the recording media speed than even this high speed footage could be recorded compressed to an external array, correct?

I understand the need for recording directly to an off-board device for a variety of reasons, but even here you wouldn't necessarily need uncompressed.
 
Well, the specs say the port is uncompressed. There is no reason to assume this will not be compressed (lossless / lossy) somewhere futher down the line.

But for now the only thing that has been announced is an external RAID and fast RAM recording option utilizing that part. Uncompressed has often been mentioned in that same line, but that has not been announced as far as I know.
 
Elo Jim,

I have to say that your argumentation means a lot for me (as I was very interested by uncompressed recording).
And I also would like to know why should people bother about uncompressed recording, if REDCODE is visually identical even after compositing and strong color correcting?
 
robl said:
No onboard uncompressed recording. Uncompressed 2K (2048 x 1152 for RED) RAW is 108 MB/s in 16-bit at 24 fps, or 81 MB/s in 12-bit.

Onboard recording will go all the way up to 4K (with REDCODE compression).
Click to expand...
I believe David mentioned that editing compressed was cpu intensive, and editing uncompressed was gpu intensive. Would this mean that for an online realtime setup, I could record compressed 27MB/s 4K, then translate to scaled uncompressed 81 MB/s 2k scaled. Since the storage is only 3 times more of selected scenes. would this allow me to fly through a realtime editing online process?

Vladimir
 
Green screen will "seal the deal" in my opinion for Redcode Raw. People are used to pulling keys with subsampled data (4:2:2, 4:1:1 etc), so this is gonna be great.
 
valoo said:
I believe David mentioned that editing compressed was cpu intensive, and editing uncompressed was gpu intensive. Would this mean that for an online realtime setup, I could record compressed 27MB/s 4K, then translate to scaled uncompressed 81 MB/s 2k scaled. Since the storage is only 3 times more of selected scenes. would this allow me to fly through a realtime editing online process?

Vladimir
Click to expand...

Editing uncomressed is disk bandwidth intensive (GPU can be used for either compressed or uncompressed sources, but it is not the bottleneck.) 10-bit 2K RGB @ 24p is 216MBytes/s (not 81), if you planning to scale to uncompressed 2K RAW (approx 80MB/s), there aren't any NLEs that hande vanila RAW data yet (for you would need to develop that through REDCINE also.)
 
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