FS7: Raw to the Odyssey 7Q

Viddovation said:
Honestly, it's amazing that Mitch is here listening and answering at all. Certainly CD can't be faulted for not being keenly interested in their customer's experiences and their potential customer's wants and needs in product purchase considerations.

That said, leave the poor man alone! He's gotta have a little bit of wiggle room! Mitch is wise, and keeps from promising up specific deadlines because if CD then misses them, it would be poor form, even if they missed such a deadline due primarily to development issues beyond their control.

Note: The above is my opinion, solely, and is directed at this thread in general, not at anyone specifically.

Don't scare him off! Stay Mitch! I'll bake some cookies!
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I'm all in favor of cookies.
 
Mitch Gross said:
I answered as much of the question as I am prepared to at this time. We wish to share as much as we can, but there are various reasons why we need to hold back some things.
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Having worked for large computer/software companies I do understand.

Thanks for keeping us informed to the degree you can:-)
 
Viddovation said:
Honestly, it's amazing that Mitch is here listening and answering at all. Certainly CD can't be faulted for not being keenly interested in <stuff removed>
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It's not amazing at all, it's part of his job. It's good customer relations and many of the companies in the pro video arena do it but he is better and more active than others. Most only reply in their own forums or on the CML.

I do appreciate him keeping us informed and have now said so in other replies.

Y'all have a Fun Fri,
Robert
 
I just started a thread on the Sony site (so someone from there reads it) about Sony's contribution to issues people are facing using the raw output - most notably the banding in shadows and whatnot due to the 12-bit linear raw output and the subsequent lack of data available to be apportioned to that part of the image.

Would be great if anyone else could chime in with their thoughts.

http://community.sony.com/t5/FS7/Raw-output-The-problem-with-12-bit-linear/m-p/494586#U494586
 
Ben Scott said:
I just started a thread on the Sony site (so someone from there reads it) about Sony's contribution to issues people are facing using the raw output - most notably the banding in shadows and whatnot due to the 12-bit linear raw output and the subsequent lack of data available to be apportioned to that part of the image.

Would be great if anyone else could chime in with their thoughts.


http://community.sony.com/t5/FS7/Raw-output-The-problem-with-12-bit-linear/m-p/494586#U494586
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Could you post examples of the issue? Thanks.
 
I'm sitting here with a clip in resolve and I have no idea how to export a still. I didn't even know I didn't know how to do that!
 
Ahh, sorted it. SO this is a dng recorded to Odyssey 7Q as raw 2k to 2k dng. All that banding is in the original file.


Untitled_1.45.4_zpskq0apbhn.png
 
I wonder if the new firmware fixes the FS7 RAW & Prores issues. Did anyone check already? I am on vacation right now, so cannot check myself - damn I am curious!
 
So having faced the issues with FS7 + Odyssey We had a pretty good grasp on the issues and what the new firmware update addresses. Shooting for VFX meant the data rate was paramount but the data itself was pretty bad. I can say the new firmware has gone a long way to fix the terrible magenta raw and clipped prores, however...

- Prores still showed a hint of clip compared to the mxfs in a test shoot - but it appeared minor.

- RAW has had the magenta fixed - but the banding is terrible. I feel whatever corrective measures that have been applied have come at expense of colour depth basically still making raw unusable for its point in purpose. - HQ image acquisition.

In short...
Mitch Gross said:
We test and test until it is ready.
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This is EXACTLY what CD should have done with the camera before they stated the FS7 was supported.

Love what the product is and it really is a game changer for us, but in an industry that is being notorious for selling us on promises, it felt like us paying CD to act as beta testers in attempt to beat the competition to the market. CD has got some making up to do.

I'm hoping this will get resolved to a point that those of us who work deeply with our images get out of the Odyessy what the camera is actually able to give it.

Mitch - I also notice firmware updates did appear to not come documented with actually a true changelist including fixes. It sure would be nice to see what issues you guys are actually fixing or addressing - before we find them in our productions.
 
Please excuse how this may sound, but while there are some issues the fact is that we do offer a product that works. Some of the issues described are not on our end and as a company Convergent Design is beholden to other companies. We don't make the cameras and we do not determine how the signals are encoded. When we are told something by a manufacturer we accept it and move forward. If we find that information to be incorrect then we have to go back and address this. This work can take many months and much of it happens "in theory" before there is any hardware for us to test with and all we have is documentation.

I would also state that a skilled colorist can do much with the material as it is captured today. This is not to denigrate your work, but to point out that there are many clients happily using the gear without issue. Jim Arthurs recently shot Assignment: Odyssey and successfully intercut the FS7 material with numerous other cameras, all recorded using the Odyssey7Q+. Anyone attending NAB this week can stop by our booth to see it playing on a large monitor in UHD. It looks fantastic.

We document our firmware updates to the degree we feel is appropriate.
 
With the greatest respect a skilled colourist cannot restore what is not recorded. Sure you could do all sorts of things to smooth the banding but it's all just covering up and working around instead of being able to shoot, record and see what is there without issue.

The truth of the matter is the 'raw in banding' issue between the FS7 and the 7Q seems to be much more to do with the Sony outputting a linear signal side of things than the Convergent Design side of things, but unless Sony suddenly decides to change the way the camera outputs raw data, the 7Q is essentially not fit for purpose as a raw recorder for the FS7 and it does feel like it is still being pushed as such despite the pipeline having a massive intrinsic problem for that - one that nobody at Sony appears to be fixing any time soon seeing as how few people want to shoot raw in the first place compared to how many people want to shout about more immediate FS7 bugs and requirements. And one that Convergent Design says is solely down to Sony.


Which for now kind of makes it 100% redundant for me.

There in the raw..

Untitled_1.45.4_zpskq0apbhn.png


2_1.38.1_zps2gypibvm.png


Is utterly unacceptable and I get better quality image in the shadows out of a DSLR.

As a slightly more positive update on the Pro Res recording contrast issue side of things. Using Nicks Shaw's fixes for already-recorded pro res material I was able to save the short I'd recorded and it has graded up quite nicely after outputting revised s-log versions.

If Nick's work can be implemented internally in the unit ASAP so it is recording slog 3 at source, then there might still be a use for it but as of now everything I've shot would have been better quality and less difficult to use had I just recorded internally and if someone offered to take it off my hands for what I paid for it I'd offload it tomorrow.

Some examples of the fixed pro res clips. As always, Flickr has ruined the colours and sharpness! Thanks so much Nick for helping save this project.

Ringtone - A short film by Soma Pics, on Flickr

Ringtone - A short film by Soma Pics, on Flickr

Ringtone - A short film by Soma Pics, on Flickr

Ringtone - A short film by Soma Pics, on Flickr



Ringtone - A short film by Soma Pics, on Flickr

Ringtone - A short film by Soma Pics, on Flickr

Ringtone - A short film by Soma Pics, on Flickr

Ringtone - A short film by Soma Pics, on Flickr

Ringtone - A short film by Soma Pics, on Flickr

NOTE: All grain and noise was added in post - That's NOT on the recordings :)
 
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Without diminishing or disregarding the concerns leveled here at Convergent Designs, I can say as an FS7 owner who has a warranty claim issue currently with Sony - it is clear to me that Sony rushed the FS7 to market, and users are paying for it in firmware and hardware issues that at least partially stem from how compartmentalized Sony is. If Sony can't communicate well enough internally to deliver a robust camera in the FS7, it certainly doesn't surprise me if Convergent Designs has had some headaches getting accurate engineering data from Sony regarding the camera.

Again, not to diminish the remarks here.
 
You're right there, but no matter who is at fault at the beginning - if the setup is not fit for purpose there comes a point where people need to stop saying it is, instead of the 7Q being pushed heavily as the ideal companion for it insinuating as though, you know, someone who sells the product had actually quickly had a look at the two items working in conjunction in the the 3 most widely used modes and seen if there are any problems before pushing it so much.

But since day one it has been the user base who have brought these issues to light and done it immediately, been told there wasn't an issue and that tons of people were using the systems flawlessly together (not met a one of these people by the way), then been told there WAS an issue but it was the other company's fault because they'd changed stuff between the FS700 and FS7 and not told them what they'd done, when you think a bit of testing would have made this very plain. Then a third party helped with a workaround and we were told the workaround WAS the fix as opposed to it being implemented at source. I believe this last has been implemented now but I've not tested it.

I'm gutted that the 7Q is just sitting there doing nothing. I should get rid but I keep hoping all this is going to get sorted quickly, despite nobody actually saying officially that this is going to happen.
 
Ben Scott said:
You're right there, but no matter who is at fault at the beginning - if the setup is not fit for purpose there comes a point where people need to stop saying it is, instead of the 7Q being pushed heavily as the ideal companion for it insinuating as though, you know, someone who sells the product had actually quickly had a look at the two items working in conjunction in the the 3 most widely used modes and seen if there are any problems before pushing it so much.
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I don't have hands on experience with the 7Q, so I can't comment to the item in question, but I certainly agree with sentiment overall, it's very similar to my feelings right now about the PXW-FS7.
 
Ben Scott said:
You're right there, but no matter who is at fault at the beginning - if the setup is not fit for purpose there comes a point where people need to stop saying it is, instead of the 7Q being pushed heavily as the ideal companion for it insinuating as though, you know, someone who sells the product had actually quickly had a look at the two items working in conjunction in the the 3 most widely used modes and seen if there are any problems before pushing it so much.

But since day one it has been the user base who have brought these issues to light and done it immediately, been told there wasn't an issue and that tons of people were using the systems flawlessly together (not met a one of these people by the way), then been told there WAS an issue but it was the other company's fault because they'd changed stuff between the FS700 and FS7 and not told them what they'd done, when you think a bit of testing would have made this very plain. Then a third party helped with a workaround and we were told the workaround WAS the fix as opposed to it being implemented at source. I believe this last has been implemented now but I've not tested it.

I'm gutted that the 7Q is just sitting there doing nothing. I should get rid but I keep hoping all this is going to get sorted quickly, despite nobody actually saying officially that this is going to happen.
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The most alarming is the tone and manner in which both CD and Sony reps communicate with the users, implying that our expectations are unreasonable, while the truth is we simply expect that their products work as advertised.
 
gene_can_sing said:
Hmmm... this is not good as it makes the 7Q somewhat useless on the FS7 since most people, myself included, want a flat, S-Log image.

More growing pains. I wonder what Mitch has to say.
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Perhaps the 7Q+ would solve those problems. May I suggest you contact the only human bean on the planet who knows all about the 7Q vs 7Q+ and who can shed some light on your particular issue. He's Dan Keaton of Convergent Design. Available 24/7. dan@convergent-design.com
Contact him and if you leave a number, don't be surprised to get a call. Great guy who knows it all but doesn't flaunt it.
 
The 7Q+ is exactly the same with the addition of the updated HDMI port. There is absolutely no difference in the signal path.
 
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