F35: Questions on filters, ramping, and the SRW-1 as of 2021

C

CineSinclair

New member
I had some F35 related questions about our current knowledge of the camera and just wanted to clarify a couple things.

Hi, I'm Daniel. Used to poke around the forums as a curious college student as user Dan_Etp, but locked myself out of that account years ago. Since then, I have moved to LA and been lucky enough to work on some cool projects, so I wanted to return to you all in this helpful community.


SRW-1

The noise removal thread is very interesting, and using one of these units seems like a good way to feel the camera as a complete, albeit large, system. With this recorder you're able to trigger record from the body and use the speed ramping functionality.

Based on this thread, it seems like you'd be able to do speed ramping to a solid-state external recorder and use Resolve to remove the duplicate frames. Is this the case?

This thread suggests that ramping with tape is a non-issue, though capture at 50P for playback at 50P is. Does this mean that a project base of 24 would be fine when capturing out of the SRPC, even when overcranking at 50?

So I'm wondering if I'm understanding this all correctly and would like to know just what is the current state of overcranking capabilities with and without the SRW. Also, is there a way to tell if an SRW/SRPC has the expansion boards (not the fiber one) when buying used?


Filters

The Formatt Firecrests have been highly praised in this community. Since their last mention, are there any others that you've used that would make for a comparable alternative?

Seeing as the camera locks to the sensor's native tungsten in Cine and Cine-EI mode, do y'all use 85B filters?


SRW-9000PL

There seem to be some advantages to this self-contained little guy: 800 ISO, SRW deck built-in, and 3G SDI.

If something goes with the tape parts though, it's less feasibly replaced than an SRW-1. I'm also wondering if the same ACES IDT that's out there now for the F35 will work with the 9000 at 800 ISO. Though the F35 to tape is maxed out at 10-bit RGB, the 9000 is incapable of outputting 12-bit ever, correct?


Thanks a bunch and I'd love to hear some experiences from you!
 
CineSinclair said:
Filters

The Formatt Firecrests have been highly praised in this community. Since their last mention, are there any others that you've used that would make for a comparable alternative?

Seeing as the camera locks to the sensor's native tungsten in Cine and Cine-EI mode, do y'all use 85B filters?


SRW-9000PL

There seem to be some advantages to this self-contained little guy: 800 ISO, SRW deck built-in, and 3G SDI.

If something goes with the tape parts though, it's less feasibly replaced than an SRW-1. I'm also wondering if the same ACES IDT that's out there now for the F35 will work with the 9000 at 800 ISO. Though the F35 to tape is maxed out at 10-bit RGB, the 9000 is incapable of outputting 12-bit ever, correct?


Thanks a bunch and I'd love to hear some experiences from you!
Click to expand...

For Filters I heard from tiffen that the latest TRUE ND is what we should use actually. I have seen the bad side of using regular NDs with F35 so don't do that mistake.

F35 is NOT locked to 3200k in Cine-EI mode. You can still do 5600k

So last time I checked, if you take the F35 out of CINE-EI mode, and use custom, you also have ISO 800 available. Same sensor, same base iso.
 
Thanks for the information!

Good to know about not being locked to 3200, I was going off of this passage in the manual:

"The white balance level is fixed at the preset value
(3200K), and auto white balance (AWB) and WHITE R/
G/B settings are not operative"

Custom also doesn't seem like it locks you out of any settings that would only be available in the other modes. Any downside to using custom?
 
CineSinclair said:
Thanks for the information!

Good to know about not being locked to 3200, I was going off of this passage in the manual:

"The white balance level is fixed at the preset value
(3200K), and auto white balance (AWB) and WHITE R/
G/B settings are not operative"

Custom also doesn't seem like it locks you out of any settings that would only be available in the other modes. Any downside to using custom?
Click to expand...

Honestly I haven't figured out all the functions of custom yet. I also don't have my EVF right now, so adjusting and testing is a bit tedious.

But I would say this, CINE-EI is a great baseline and leaves most space to avoid mistakes in settings, while Custom can mess things up. That's my 2 cents.

C
 
CineSinclair said:
Thanks for the information!

Good to know about not being locked to 3200, I was going off of this passage in the manual:

"The white balance level is fixed at the preset value
(3200K), and auto white balance (AWB) and WHITE R/
G/B settings are not operative"

Custom also doesn't seem like it locks you out of any settings that would only be available in the other modes. Any downside to using custom?
Click to expand...

The 5600K setting is an ON or OFF setting from the side panel menu. You need to press a few buttons and you can have 5600K On or Off. Unfortunately, it is not an option for the quick Assignable 1, 2, 3 buttons. It would have been really nice if it were.
 
Archduk3 said:
CINE-EI is a great baseline and leaves most space to avoid mistakes in settings, while Custom can mess things up. That's my 2 cents.
Click to expand...

RayZan said:
The 5600K setting is an ON or OFF setting from the side panel menu. You need to press a few buttons and you can have 5600K On or Off. Unfortunately, it is not an option for the quick Assignable 1, 2, 3 buttons. It would have been really nice if it were.
Click to expand...

Thanks guys, the limited functions in CINE-EI does seem like a benefit for these reasons. Shame to hear about temperature not being quick assignable, but not a huge concession either way.

I'd also be interested in hearing how experiences compared from people who've used both cameras with this sensor!
 
Is there a specific speed ramp you have in mind? The ultimate problem is 24fps to 50fps isn’t a great ramp. But hey, someone could prove it to be subtly creative. I record 50p onto the 7Q for 23.98 it works, you can play it back at 50p if you want.

If you are trying to keep it low cost to start ProRes 422 recorder is cheap if you hunt eBay. Get a SRW-1 for under $300 and use it sometime but you won’t want it all times, the dock is the cool part of the F35’s ability to change form. You will use the camera more if it’s a one man operation. If I was going to always shoot tape the 9000 is the way to go but you might find you become comfortable with external recorder only because shooting something like prores straight onto SSD is so damn simple to get into post.
 
yachacha said:
Is there a specific speed ramp you have in mind? The ultimate problem is 24fps to 50fps isn’t a great ramp. But hey, someone could prove it to be subtly creative. I record 50p onto the 7Q for 23.98 it works, you can play it back at 50p if you want.
Click to expand...

Thanks! Yeah you're right. Certainly it's not a tremendous ramp over time. I'm thinking more of the difference on either side of a shorter ramp. The fascination here stems more from being able to do a completely in-camera change between speeds with the shutter angle remaining constant between the two. If I had a longer take capturing 24 for half and 50 for the other, I wouldn't love the 50p motion for the half of it that wasn't meant to be slowed down.

That's part of the reason why I was wondering about capturing the speed ramped output digitally and removing the duplicate frames with Resolve. Does anyone have test footage of this?


yachacha said:
If you are trying to keep it low cost to start ProRes 422 recorder is cheap if you hunt eBay. Get a SRW-1 for under $300 and use it sometime but you won’t want it all times, the dock is the cool part of the F35’s ability to change form. You will use the camera more if it’s a one man operation. If I was going to always shoot tape the 9000 is the way to go but you might find you become comfortable with external recorder only because shooting something like prores straight onto SSD is so damn simple to get into post.
Click to expand...

Honestly, tape workflow wasn't on my radar at first, but looking into it more I found myself with more questions and thought it could be a very interesting option to break out an SRW-1 for certain setups. Definitely supplementing a digital recorder though!
 
Have you seen that camera with the tape deck its... HUGE!!!! you would be a legend in my book if you rocked that ****. I can see why it would be fun tho... It would change the whole experience of shooting to boring cards all the time... I'm not an expert on filters... so someone correct me if I'm wrong here.. I have a few "4 x 5.65" IRND Polarizer Filter - Water White" for the F35 they are affordable and work great to my eye.. not many in stock on tiffens site been, waiting months for one last one to come in.

From what I have seen there is no difference between custom and cine ei except you have more options in custom. White balance control, 5600 or 3200, ISO settings.. Color space and gamma setting can be set to the same thing as cine ei, so im assuming the picture would be exactly the same..

Personally I have had success shooting 10bit 50p pro res bringing that into resolve and doing my ramping there. I'm a huge fan of the 7Q+ it records 12bit dpx and the monitoring scopes / monitoring options are really solid like false color, spot meter etc... Resolve also has some really powerful optical flow and similar effects if you do decide to slow it down further than the over cranked 50p you might be able to get away with some extra frames.. Personally, on paid gigs I always pop a color checker into the frame. I found that it really helps with skin tones in slog when you dial in the vector colors. Recently I have been bringing a lot of my projects into aces with the F35, I found when graded it has more "natural" look similar to shooting in the hypergammas but you get more shadow and highlight detail utilizing slog.

Recently I have been doing some tests shooting in the hypergammas then doing some small but effective color tweaks in resolve adding some film grain and it looks pretty darn good. The one problem I have had with aces thus for is some extreme colors tend to break apart, for example like a bright blue reflective beer can, or a bright yellow street sign might look funky if you push it too far. The hypergammas get you pretty close to the "aces look" and you dont have to worry about the colors breaking apart... But you obviously see what you get for the most part in hyper gamma "hard grading" and pushing it can be limited. Where in slog and aces you can REALLY push the exposure. Good luck man! Hope this helps!!

Art Adams has done some great tests / blogs with the F35 back in the day https://www.provideocoalition.com/non_technical_f35_guide/

If you have time find all the F35 articles on that site and give them a read... A lot of good info on there... I believe Art did a test comparing the 85 filter to the built in 5600 into the F35 and I think he said they were exactly the same.. He also has a page on filters I believe... I think he mentioned the sensor on he F35 has that special coating on it so you dont need to worry about IR pollution and you can use standard ND's
 
Thanks Bigmitch, I've been doing more of my color projects with ACES lately, and colorcheckers are super useful!

I had the time so I read all the F35 articles! It seems that far red pollution just under the range of the coating can still affect the blacks in the image. What's interesting to note is that, from one of the Alexa Classic articles, it seems some of that far red is desirable for skintones. Seems easy enough to correct for in the blacks in resolve though if one were to not opt for IRNDs. There seems to be a 50nm range that they'd help with before you reach the range of the hot filter. This all calls for tests at some point.
 
CineSinclair said:
Thanks Bigmitch, I've been doing more of my color projects with ACES lately, and colorcheckers are super useful!

I had the time so I read all the F35 articles! It seems that far red pollution just under the range of the coating can still affect the blacks in the image. What's interesting to note is that, from one of the Alexa Classic articles, it seems some of that far red is desirable for skintones. Seems easy enough to correct for in the blacks in resolve though if one were to not opt for IRNDs. There seems to be a 50nm range that they'd help with before you reach the range of the hot filter. This all calls for tests at some point.
Click to expand...

Good points man I think your spot on
 
Hey man I shoot constantly with the SRW-1 and it’s such a nice heavy beast. If you have a good tripod you will enjoy the hell out of this thing. Don’t focus on how heavy it is because it’s the tripod that will do the lifting most times, and even if you have to do handheld it will simply make the shoots feel massive because of the weight, and the balance on the shoulder will be a dream. Having that much weight makes the moves have a gravitational push that feels expansive. It’s also not “that“ heavy. My background is in film so I’m used to a camera being hefty and I’m used to waiting for film to be processed. So if you go the srw route make sure to take it all in and enjoy it with patience. No need to rush to see the footage. I also bought a hdcam sr deck which makes capturing very easy to do.

Again, forget about the heavy narrative, don’t let it be an issue and you will make it work I promise. So many filmmakers have made it work, you can put the digital Mag on the rare or on the top if you need it to get into tighter corners. God it’s so much fun having to choose to dock it rare or top lol. I love this stuff with all
My heart so you’ll never hear a complain from me even if it was 10 times bigger.

Nisi cine irnd filters have absolutely no color cast or pollution to the image and they are very cheap compared to all the rest. Check them out.

Good luck on your journey.
 
CineSinclair said:
SRW-9000PL

There seem to be some advantages to this self-contained little guy: 800 ISO, SRW deck built-in, and 3G SDI.

If something goes with the tape parts though, it's less feasibly replaced than an SRW-1. I'm also wondering if the same ACES IDT that's out there now for the F35 will work with the 9000 at 800 ISO. Though the F35 to tape is maxed out at 10-bit RGB, the 9000 is incapable of outputting 12-bit ever, correct?
Click to expand...

Yes it is true that the 9000PL only outputs 10bit. It appears that there were plans to add 12bit probably when the not released solid state upgrade as going to be released but never happened. My unit shows a 12bit format but is not selectable and the manual mentions it as well. Its unfortunate since in many ways the 9000PL is superior to the F35, it's upgraded and much smaller, lighter and far less power hungry than the F35 with the SRW1. Its less than 2KG heavier than the body of the F35 and 4 KG lighter than the F35+SRW1.

If you are shooting s-log then the aces IDT will work since it is the same as the F35. If you are referring to the ISO 800 Gamma mode unique to the 9000PL then it may or may not work since that mode is more like a hypergamma as far as I understand. I have a 9000PL so I can test it out for you if you would like.

I have a full kit for the 9000PL - 15mm baseplate, view finder, tapes, battery, microphone, SRW1 for capturing and capture card - basically everything needed to shoot available for less than you usually find a F35 body for should you decide to go that route.
 
DIRECTORDEVIN said:
Some crazy word play there lol
Click to expand...

I met Devin... He is not your average little dude... LOL. But having said that, I find the F35 with the SRW-1 perfectly balances on the shoulder. I know it sounds nuts... but if you have someone who can help you lift it up there, it really is worth trying a shoot with it.
 
rbirnbaum said:
I met Devin... He is not your average little dude... LOL. But having said that, I find the F35 with the SRW-1 perfectly balances on the shoulder. I know it sounds nuts... but if you have someone who can help you lift it up there, it really is worth trying a shoot with it.
Click to expand...

Can I lie and say it was the F35 that made me bigger lol
 
rbirnbaum said:
I met Devin... He is not your average little dude... LOL. But having said that, I find the F35 with the SRW-1 perfectly balances on the shoulder. I know it sounds nuts... but if you have someone who can help you lift it up there, it really is worth trying a shoot with it.
Click to expand...

Surprisingly this is absolutely true. I used the F356 with the Odyssey, Codex and SRW-1 and in many ways the SRW-1 was my favorite. It supports everything the camera can offer and allows to the F35 be a fully functioning camera. The F35 is limited without a recorder docked and while the Codex can dock with it there is very limited communication between both units, you cant view recordings from the Codex in the VF for example. When I decided to try going with the F35 and SRW-1 I was worried about how heavy it would be, which it is, but with the SRW-1 docked the balance of the system is soo much better and I actually found the system felt lighter and easier to manage. With the Odyssey and even the Codex the F35 is very front heavy putting the load on your arms which tires you out quickly, the SRW-1 balances the weigh over the shoulder and I found it far more comfortable and easier to manange.
 
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