Barry_Green
Moderator
It works in connection with free run. Using it in rec run would indeed be pointless. In free run it lets you set them all at the same preset, and continue in sync through the rest of the day.mikkowilson said:
questions from the operating manual
- Thread starter smelni
- Start date
Barry_Green
Moderator
Yes.Haakon said:I thought I understood the variable framerate stuff completely until the article came out, and now I'm actually more confused."720/24p mode" is really 24p, "over 60" in 720 resolution, right?
Correct.
It wouldn't.
I'm not sure of the why. I thought it did record audio in all modes, and only play back during the same-frame-rate stuff. But it appears that that is not the case. So -- I haven't thought of any good reason for that at all.
It makes sense that "over 60" would record the audio at all times, because it's a SMPTE-compliant data stream, regardless of what effect you chose by using a slower frame rate. But the "Native" mode is something new, and for some reason it appears that they are not recording the audio unless you're shooting 24pN at 24fps, or 30pN at 30fps.
Barry_Green
Moderator
The main reason for "over 60" is firewire streaming. If you don't need to stream the firewire output to something, then there's almost no reason at all to not shoot in the "N" modes. Well, unless of course you're looking for the 60P "reality" look, but in that case "over 60" would be working fundamentally identical to "N" anyway...Haakon said:
Barry_Green
Moderator
I don't think it can, no. From what I understand it attaches the files on the SD card to the clip, so if you changed the SD card data, it would attach that into the clip. Maybe you're meant to have a zealous script supervisor who updates the file on their laptop and then plugs the SD card in before shooting?
redindian
Well-known member
Barry_Green said:
I think the message was lost in translation. The sentence doesnt seem to make sense in the manual.
Quote from the manual:
"Sound is not recorded. However, sound will be recorded when the same frame rate is used for both recording and playback."
where will the camera get the sound, if it not recorded in the first place? How does it preemptively know which framerate the user is going to play it back?
Reworded:
Sound will be always be recorded, but it will not be audible when the footage is played at a different framerate than the one in which it was orginally recorded.
(based on ur post in dvinfo, where u said, "the audio will be always available in a different folder")
Thanks for helping to clarify that a little more, Barry. I totally understand some of the reason for the overlap in framerate combinations, but I also think that their "197 different looks!" thing is a little overstated considering that one combination in one mode is identical to a different combination in another. Having a billion different options to work with is great, but having duplicates is just going to confuse the customer more, I think. There's already been a bit of difficulty had by some parties shooting footage that they thought was one way but ended up being different because the settings were weird. Perhaps what is most confusing are the extra "720/24" and "720/30" modes that are really just the 60p modes configured for 24 or 30 fps timelines. Like you mentioned, they're there for "firewire streaming" (which I don't think should be eliminated), but I guess I don't understand why you can't push 24pN data through a cable just like anything else. It's all digital 1s and 0s after all...
Mr. E. Trane
Member
Thanx Barry, Didn't think it would.
Ah man, how much is a zealous script super gunna run me? :happy:
Ah man, how much is a zealous script super gunna run me? :happy:
Barry_Green
Moderator
Ah, but there's the rub -- by selecting 24pN or 30pN, that specificalliy identifies which framerate you will play it back at. So sound gets recorded in 24pN at 24fps, but not at any other frame rate. And it gets recorded in 30pN at 30fps, but not at any other frame rate.redindian said:
I believe I was wrong when I said that. I thought I was right, but I obviously must have mixed up a 720/24p clip with a 720/24pN clip. In 720/24p, sound is always recorded, regardless of what frame rate you shoot at. In 24pN or 30pN, sound apparently only gets recorded if you're shooting at 24fps or 30fps; in other words, if you undercrank or overcrank then sound does not appear to get recorded.
Barry_Green
Moderator
I don't get it either. I mean, why not? Granted it would be bitstream incompatible with all other DVCPRO-HD firewire devices, but -- um, how many of them are there? One. Just the AJ-HD1200A deck, right? So yes you'd need a new driver for FCP and Avid and Canopus, but how hard is that?Haakon said:
So yes, I fully agree, I wish there was streaming of the 24pN and 30pN modes. I especially triple wish it because of the FireStore, it will probably end up storing only 90 minutes of footage when, with 24pN streaming, it could theoretically do four hours.
I'm not arguing, I guess there's a reason, but it's not apparent.
I think the reason it is the way it is to be compliant with an external deck. The deck doesn't know how to handle 24pN, only the old "over 60" standard from the Varicam. That's why they make a separate hardware framerate converter that costs tens of thousands of dollars. If there was no free plugin for FCP that did framerate conversion, we'd all be up a creek (until now).
The HVX bypasses all of that nonsense by adding the "N" modes. The Varicam probably never had it because it had to lay down a certain cadence to the tape. It's not possible to be switching framerate playback on the fly with tape, which is why P2 is so enabling. However, now that we have this technology, we seemingly have to "dumb it down" to be compatible with the old technology.
I wouldn't do away with live streaming altogether; it's a really good solution for instant capture to a laptop with "unlimited" drive space. It's unfortunate that this cannot be done in the 24pN mode, however, because that's probably the only timebase I will ever be using.
The HVX bypasses all of that nonsense by adding the "N" modes. The Varicam probably never had it because it had to lay down a certain cadence to the tape. It's not possible to be switching framerate playback on the fly with tape, which is why P2 is so enabling. However, now that we have this technology, we seemingly have to "dumb it down" to be compatible with the old technology.
I wouldn't do away with live streaming altogether; it's a really good solution for instant capture to a laptop with "unlimited" drive space. It's unfortunate that this cannot be done in the 24pN mode, however, because that's probably the only timebase I will ever be using.
Barry_Green
Moderator
Well, there's also the possibility that the capture application authors could just be intelligent about it too. For example, Serious Magic -- I would wager that they would make their app "smart", so even though it's fed 60p, it could choose to save only the flagged frames to disk.
mikkowilson
Steadi-Guru
Barry_Green said:
Doh! :embarasse
..I always forget about Free-Run in these smaller cams..
Just set the HVX to Free-Run, plug in, jam, and unplug, and of it goes.. (based on it's own internal clock of course ... how accurate is that? anyone?)
- Mikko
mikkowilson
Steadi-Guru
"Native" .. it only record the shot frames. running at 30p in a 60p stream each frame gets recoded twice, but at 30pN you only record the same 30 frames.
- Mikko
- Mikko
Thanks, I think I uderstand. Another issue I like to mention is that the operation manual is for the NTSC model (naturaly). Actually almost all the information in this forums are for non PAL users. So questions regarding the frame rates in the PAL version, how the N mode works, how the 1080 signas is been recorded and how we suposse to handle the signal for NLE, are not answered. Does the Raylight suports PAL, do we need to remove 2:3:3:2 pulldown... confusing... Thank God I have the time to participate in this forums and for not having the money to buy the camera yet 
Barry_Green
Moderator
In PAL territories there is no pulldown to worry about. And the frame rates are all the same except instead of 22/24/26, PAL gets 23/25/27. Don't know if RayLight will support the 50hz version or not, I'd guess that it will.
ullanta
Veteran
smelni said:
Yes, automatic gain control....
as opposed to ALC on the DVX, automatic limiting control...
Can anyone confirm that the HVX will gain up AND limit as appropriate? Is pure ALC gone? Do the gain controls have any effect whatsoever when AGC is invoked?
So sad... I had that chance to play with the HVX at CES, but had no headphones...
Barry_Green
Moderator
The HVX has the same type of ALC as the DVX does. No auto-gain-up is selectable through the menu system (except for video gain, of course, and that only happens when the full-auto switch is used).
So there is no audio AGC, at least on channels 1 & 2.
When you set internal mic to 1 & 2, then it uses the XLR's for 3 & 4. The internal mic level is definitely controlled by the audio pots, when internal mic is 1 & 2. Not sure yet what happens to the XLR inputs when you're using the internal on 1 & 2, I would presume it would set at a fixed level regardless. I'll have to figure this one out.
So there is no audio AGC, at least on channels 1 & 2.
When you set internal mic to 1 & 2, then it uses the XLR's for 3 & 4. The internal mic level is definitely controlled by the audio pots, when internal mic is 1 & 2. Not sure yet what happens to the XLR inputs when you're using the internal on 1 & 2, I would presume it would set at a fixed level regardless. I'll have to figure this one out.