Questions about the Hero Fest

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Wait! Maybe I haven't explained myself well enough.... I DO hold these films up to the same standards as "hollywood" - including my own. Yes, I fell short of those standards, but that doesn't make my film a failure.

How many films in "hollywood" are perfect successes? How many films in "hollywood" are LOVED by EVERYONE? Take the Village for example....That is one of my favorite films, yet many people dislike it and have bashed it without mercy.

Does that mean the filmmakers shouldn't have submitted the film, since it didn't meet the standards of the people who hated it so much? What about those of us who enjoy it, then we would have missed out.

Yes, I hold myself to very high standards....and one day I hope to achieve them. And, how will I (or others) achieve those standards without means of getting our work completed and reviewed by people who will give honest and fair criticism?

This isn't about looking for pats on the back, this is about making the absolute best project possible under the constraints and difficulties that we face during the process.
 
Dude... I'll say it again... Spidey's film DID NOT impress me last festival... but did I sit there and go... "dude it was like a 48 hour film project!" No... I respected him and gave him the props where I felt props due, and negative (subjective mind you) critique when it was due.

Larry, don't feel bad, you went out and freakin' got it done! That's awesome, and I respect that you did that!

And guess what ya'll, some 48 film projects are INCREDIBLE! Some even are better than films that take months or years to make, so it's all subjective really, and we need to all learn HOW to make our comments (primarily the negative) and to show each other a little more respect and common courtesy.
 
Larry R said:
Wait! Maybe I haven't explained myself well enough.... I DO hold these films up to the same standards as "hollywood" - including my own. Yes, I fell short of those standards, but that doesn't make my film a failure.

How many films in "hollywood" are perfect successes? How many films in "hollywood" are LOVED by EVERYONE? Take the Village for example....That is one of my favorite films, yet many people dislike it and have bashed it without mercy.

Does that mean the filmmakers shouldn't have submitted the film, since it didn't meet the standards of the people who hated it so much? What about those of us who enjoy it, then we would have missed out.

Yes, I hold myself to very high standards....and one day I hope to achieve them. And, how will I (or others) achieve those standards without means of getting our work completed and reviewed by people who will give honest and fair criticism?

This isn't about looking for pats on the back, this is about making the absolute best project possible under the constraints and difficulties that we face during the process.
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Yeah, seriously, Larry. If you aren't holding yourself to those standards then what are you doing it for? I'm with you all the way.

I think it's a dis-service not to hold the submissions to those standards. I think I understand the point more-so, now. I expect the same treatment as you do in the future.
 
Kholi said:
Yeah, seriously, Larry. If you aren't holding yourself to those standards then what are you doing it for? I'm with you all the way.

I think it's a dis-service not to hold the submissions to those standards. I think I understand the point more-so, now. I expect the same treatment as you do in the future.
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Haha, Kholi, i was with ya there for awhile, but I can't agree, totally.

I'll say right out, I won't judge these films with the same criteria I would a Cannes/Sundance/Hollywood film. It's a different ballgame, IMO. How would one go about comparing the results of SAG actors, tens of thousand dollar budgets (yes some of the award winning shorts cost that much -many are gov't grant subsidized) professional crew, and award winning screenplays (culled from hundreds of submissions in each country) ? I don't know...

Don't mistake me, that's the standard I go by, but I feel it would be unfair to apply it to others here. I kind of want to do that, but the mechanics of taking apart the film, all the way down to initial concept, might not be efficacious for the filmmaker in improving,
IMHO.

Also, I don't think I have the props to do that. Like I said, it's a balancing act between wanting to be helpful and constructive, and still give a critical review.

Perhaps I should make a list of people who want to be held to near Oscar-like perfection ? Ok *** takes out pen and paper*** LarryR, Kholi ... :) :)


EDIT - I feel like a d**k reviewing other people's stuff when I haven't shown any of mine yet too.

Cheers
 
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D_and_G said:
Haha, Kholi, i was with ya there for awhile, but I can't agree, totally.

I'll say right out, I won't judge these films with the same criteria I would a Cannes/Sundance/Hollywood film. It's a different ballgame, IMO. How would one go about comparing the results of SAG actors, tens of thousand dollar budgets (yes some of the award winning shorts cost that much -many are gov't grant subsidized) professional crew, and award winning screenplays (culled from hundreds of submissions in each country) ? I don't know...

Don't mistake me, that's the standard I go by, but I feel it would be unfair to apply it to others here. I kind of want to do it, but the mechanics of taking apart the film, all the way down to initial concept, might not be efficacious for the filmmaker in improving, IMHO.

Also, I don't think I have the props to do that.

Damn, maybe I should judge others with the high degree I hold myself to? That seems so unfair :grin:
Perhaps I should make a list of people who want to be held to near perfection ? Ok *** takes out pen and paper*** LarryR, Kholi ... :) :)
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xD Has nothing to with "perfection" i'd say. Because, and I'm sure you know this, even in a major multi-million-dollar production... well, things go wrong hourly. It's the nature of the craft/business/machine/monster. There's never a perfect movie. Something can always be improved upon. Yeah?

I don't mind being judged on those standards.

S'like... "Wow! Your film is good (as a DVXuser film.)". I don't think that helps at all. S'just me though.
 
I think the fact that we are having this conversation is indicative that this forum can for the most part coddle our own filmmakers. I entered this fest with my first film. Was it amazing? No. Are there things I would change. Hell yes. Lots of things. Did I learn a crap load that will make my next films way better. You bet your arse. I received some criticism for my film's cursing. And at first I wrote it off as being from prudes or people who just find the cursing or the subject matter inappropriate. But later people mentioned that they didn't have problems with cursing in general, just in this piece and that the delivery or the look of the actors may be the reason it seemed out of place. Now that made me take another look. And I see what they are saying. Criticising a film without providing either a reason or and example is not helpful. And I completely agree that tact should be exercised, but not to the point where people watch a movie they thought was bad (even if it is mine) and say it was good but.....

There are only a very few honest people who speak up when they have something to say that may bruise egos or cause hurt feelings. Most people on this board are very nice and say only positive things. I myself prefer the former. I would rather get critiqued hard and ignore that which I find wrong and take in that which I find merit in, even if it is something that shatters my perception of my movie. I don't care if the person critiquing has never made a film or never seen a short before mine. If they have a valid argument, that's all there is to it.

There is a poetry forum I was on for a little while and it was the exact opposite. They ripped into people who didn't put up what they considered good poetry. But they gave extremely indepth reasons and tons of suggestions as to how to improve. There was one incident when a girl who had to be around 13-18 years old or so juding from her poem got her poem called trite and said that she shouldn't write another poem until she reads enough poetry to understand what makes a poem good. But they also gave her tons of specific critques of lines that didn't work and emotions that were to broad. And they gave her lists of authors and workshops to help her out. I thought that the way they handled her was ridiculously harsh but that the information was extremely useful.

I think there are mostly two types of filmmakers on this board (broad generalization time). Those who make films for themselves and don't have serious aspirations to really challenge themselves. They are primarily working on making small steps and take a lot of time between those steps. There is nothing wrong withg this. Many have paying jobs (maybe related to film, maybe not) and this is their passion outside of that. But then there are those who have that extra something that are required to really make it. Motivation and determination. Filmmaking is a harsh mistress and this board is an island where you can relax and enjoy yourself. But if you have dreams of making it (whatever that is to you), you have to really get used to the pressure, harsh critiques, and dealing with issues that I can't even fathom since I am not yet an accomplished filmmaker.

This will invariably raise the question, well who are you? I am the latter. And if you want to be serious, the first step is to say you are a filmmaker and make it happen. In "Breaking In: How 20 filmmakers Got Their Start" there is a quote that you have to say you are a director and then convince others. Noone will tell you you are a director or let you direct untill you say you are a director. There is no career path that automatically graduates you to director. I am a beginner and this board is my AAA ballclub. But I plan on getting called up to the majors eventually. Don't worry I'll still visit. :) I am a director and criticisms are welcome.

See you all in Horrorfest.

Alex
 
Well, I meant perfection in the sense of achieving extremely high quality across the board of all the aspects of a production. Obviously, perfection is an illusion when it comes to filmmaking.

Likewise, I would like to be judged to that international standard aforementioned.

What I have a hard time doing is balancing the encouragement of an artist whilst constructively giving them a critical review. For example, if i reviewed a short film and 9 out of ten points were pointing to the deficiencies, while including tips on fixing them (some unfixable, like originality) - wouldn't that filmmaker come away discouraged, even if you let them know you are judging them by a Hollywood criteria ? The last thing I want to do is discourage an artist from entering again, improving, and prospering. Both LarryR and Envision have shown great improvement over the fests. I find that extremely commendable.

I agree that purely azz kissing responses aren't wanted or needed here. My problem is moderating the critical evaluation with the resources of the filmmakers at hand. That's all I'm saying - I take those kinds of things into account when reviewing, and I don't review if i don't think I can add anything, or detract so much from the piece that it's overwhelmingly negative.

Heck, I'm just figuring all this out too. We seem to be sympatico (Kholi, Alex, LarryR) on how we would like our work to be judged, so that's something at least :beer:

This thread has made me think about how i judge the entrants though. Damn, i'm missing the football highlights ... ;)

:beer:
 
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D_and_G said:
What I have a hard time doing is balancing the encouragement of an artist whilst constructively giving them a critical review. For example, if i reviewed a short film and 9 out of ten points were pointing to the deficiencies, while including tips on fixing them (some unfixable, like originality) - wouldn't that filmmaker come away discouraged, even if you let them know you are judging them by a Hollywood criteria ? The last thing I want to do is discourage an artist from entering again, improving, and prospering. Both LarryR and Envision have shown great improvement over the fests. I find that extremely commendable.
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It is hard. But telling someone that they are unoriginal is more important than saying the acting wasn't good. If you don't think they have a solid foundation you especially need to tell them that. They need to evaluate your take on their work and see if they either A) need to learn how to write a story B) tell that story more effectively C) hire a writer if they can't do it themselves D) pick a position that is more suited to their talents and interests.
 
Alex DePew said:
It is hard. But telling someone that they are unoriginal is more important than saying the acting wasn't good. If you don't think they have a solid foundation you especially need to tell them that. They need to evaluate your take on their work and see if they either A) need to learn how to write a story B) tell that story more effectively C) hire a writer if they can't do it themselves D) pick a position that is more suited to their talents and interests.
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gotcha Alex ! :thumbsup:

So you think that we should be reviewing these films as if they are up against an Oscar winner, or Golden Bear/Palm winner ? That's not sarcasm, I was just wondering about your take.

And I just don't know how comfortable I would be telling someone that they need to go back to the drawing board and start from scratch, even if I give them specific reasons and possible alternatives, as you mentioned.

F**k if i know. I just want to help them be better filmmakers, and give them a comparitive analysis for the resources at hand. I want to be a positive dickie bird, and a fair one too... when I say I like something, or don't, i mean it. I'd rather stay silent, then kiss azz...
 
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I immediately see people making excuses in terms of reference of Canne or Sundance competing short's with defense of budget's and SAG actor's and I say

Whateva ' !

If you will it; you can make it happen. Forget about budget's and SAG actor's.

We're talking 5 Minute Short's here. It takes effort. Forget about hiring and/or working with your 'buddy's. Hire and work with real talent and can really help beyond P. A.

Peluca was a 9 Minute short from Jared Hess made for less than $500 and shot on 16mm. That is just one example of what we can do within our budget's (The talent being the most impressive aspect of that example).

pel4fu.gif


What about Jack's shot of the little girl in The Odd Sqaud ? I remember this shot alone being super impressive (A lot of the shot's in that were nicely done)

girl1oa.gif


What Rich Lee's Music Video from Buckfast 'Just Like You'

rlee4fu.gif


Sam and Jesse's Texas Fortune

tf9qw.gif


...

I could go on all night with examples of work from here and in the world ....

---

There are some folk's here that make excuses for their work (or lack of) and there those that make none whatsoever and are headed full steam ahead.

It's time we all expected more of each other and definately time for any fear or insecurity with feedback to take a hike.

---

Horrorfest is up next. Let's hope the player's show up.
 
D_and_G said:
gotcha Alex ! :thumbsup:

So you think that we should be reviewing these films as if they are up against an Oscar winner, or Golden Bear/Palm winner ? That's not sarcasm, I was just wondering about your take.:
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I'm curious to hear what others think as well on this question. I've never approached the festivals (beginning with zombiefest) with that criteria for probably a few reasons. One i'm not in the profession, i'm a hobbyist who really enjoys this forum and has learned a lot (but i do have an interest in making a documentary, which I plan to begin in by November) and I was under the assumption that some-to-many joined the festivals for fun rather than competition.

My impression was based, i guess, from the zombiefest. Of course we had some great films there, but many seemed like they were put together without much care for one or more areas of filmmaking (story, acting, directing, cinematography, etc.)

So I thought the festivals were for people who wanted to win and for those who wanted to experiment/have fun/develop (specific) skills.

But i can understand the frustration of being asked to watch a film that looks like not much effort was put in to it. In fact, I think thats why I didn't really pay too much attention to scifest, after zombiefest when i watched every single film more than once.

Personally, my critiques would never be based on "experience" or "talent" because I'm novice and am more interested in non-ficition than fiction production, but I do know what I like and what I don't like.

But let me add, that I have been dissappointed with what I have seen this time around. This is not to say it didn't happen before, but I never noticed it.

On at least three occassions I've seen some really harsh and negative "critiques" that not only lacked substance but were posted by someone with only 2 or 3 posts. The worst was deleted by one of the moderators (thnx).

Aside from that quick note, back to the original question. How or by what standards should we review these films?
 
John_Hudson said:
I immediately see people making excuses in terms of reference of Canne or Sundance competing short's with defense of budget's and SAG actor's and I say

Whateva ' !

If you will it; you can make it happen. Forget about budget's and SAG actor's.

We're talking 5 Minute Short's here. It takes effort. Forget about hiring and/or working with your 'buddy's. Hire and work with real talent and can really help beyond P. A.

Peluca was a 9 Minute short from Jared Hess made for less than $500 and shot on 16mm. That is just one example of what we can do within our budget's (The talent being the most impressive aspect of that example).

pel4fu.gif


What about Jack's shot of the little girl in The Odd Sqaud ? I remember this shot alone being super impressive (A lot of the shot's in that were nicely done)

girl1oa.gif


What Rich Lee's Music Video from Buckfast 'Just Like You'

rlee4fu.gif


Sam and Jesse's Texas Fortune

tf9qw.gif


...

I could go on all night with examples of work from here and in the world ....

---

There are some folk's here that make excuses for their work (or lack of) and there those that make none whatsoever and are headed full steam ahead.

It's time we all expected more of each other and definately time for any fear or insecurity with feedback to take a hike.

---

Horrorfest is up next. Let's hope the player's show up.
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Good points John and I agree... BUT... like I said before, IMO there is a right way and a wrong way to make critique. I think you have a very good sense of that.
 
John_Hudson said:
It's time we all expected more of each other and definately time for any fear or insecurity with feedback to take a hike.
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Hmmm, I expect a lot. Like I said, i don't think there has been ANY dvxuser film that stands up to the best of international competition. There have been vast improvements by many though.

I'll have to think about reviewing with that standard in mind. Maybe, as you suggest it's applicable in these contests. That would certainly be putting the bar much much higher.



cheers.
 
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I agree with you

SIMILO I would offer up. Curugon's Texas Fortune as a maybe for International competetion

I have been delighted with a handful of film's:

CPU
THE LAUGHING BLOOD
ODD
BONEHAND
SIMILO
WE ARE NOT ALONE

and some other's ...

I believe a few of the member's here are really ready to make a Quantam Leap; but they;re gonna have to want it. '
 
for the hunderth time i know you didnt like my movie briceman I know you told me that alot and I dont care. one person opinion see? But i took what you said into concideration but it doesnt mean my next movie will has less violence language nudity.... in fact my horror fest will probli be more. I want to go to the extremes. Each movie I make the more complex I want to make the shots. I want to make the story more complex. I learn something since the last one, make a 7 min script at least and nothing more. CPU script was 20 pages then I had to trim 20 mins out of it thas why the movie is the way it is. but in either case I knew the flaws. and when people to me I said thanks I will use this to help me. Not go: WHAT NU UH! I take each thing with concideration of where people are coming from.

Briceman I know your convictions and I know my film probli didnt fall in you watching catagory but it did with many others.

I want make those type of movies.

Envision, I know what I said because I meant what I said. there are alot of films here that feel like no effort. when you have one go over the top and other lack what do you do. I plan on watching them all today. also envision my critique was quick if you want a more longer one I will give you one if you like.


I think there is alot of people here that agree but are afraid to say it.

John Hudson I totally agree with you. After I saw texas Fortune I set my goals to compete to films like that.

talent, story and money. If you expect to compete in these things shouldnt you try to out do whats nesscessary to win? Go beyond it?

I mean call me an ass for telling you how it is... sorry. But I do plan on telling my critques today to each person.
 
D_and_G said:
So you think that we should be reviewing these films as if they are up against an Oscar winner, or Golden Bear/Palm winner ? That's not sarcasm, I was just wondering about your take.
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The only standard I think you should hold the films to is whether or not you were entertained. Did you feel something while watching the short. If it is a comedy, did it make you laugh. If it is a drama, was the idea interesting and well told. I think that all films regardless of budget should be held to this standard. As long as indie filmmakers are operating with small to no budgets there will always be something to critique. The question is whether or not the film succeeded in telling it's story and wether or not that story was worth telling (i.e. original, new, interesting, funny, etc..) If the movie was ruined by bad acting, say so. If the movie was ruined by a bad script say so. If the movie was poorly directed, keep your comments to yourself:nads: (just kiding, of course say so.) But if the movie worked and was only diminished by one or more of these integral aspects, then I think the movie was a success. And the people involved have understood what it takes to make a movie because with such small budgets there will always be sacrifices. But did these sacrifices compromise your telling of the story? That is the method I use for judgement. And I try to offer criticism in a tactful way.

D_and_G said:
And I just don't know how comfortable I would be telling someone that they need to go back to the drawing board and start from scratch, even if I give them specific reasons and possible alternatives, as you mentioned.

F**k if i know. I just want to help them be better filmmakers, and give them a comparitive analysis for the resources at hand. I want to be a positive dickie bird, and a fair one too... when I say I like something, or don't, i mean it. I'd rather stay silent, then kiss azz...
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I agree, it is hard to tell someone, especially someone over the internet who doesn't know you from Adam, that you think their movie didn't work. That they need to re-examine their entire movie. Especially when there are other people saying how good they think it is. Why would they listen to you? But they should. Because the viewer knows what they like. Other filmmakers may tell you how wonderful the look is, but a viewer generally only sees the whole picture not the details.
Making them better filmmakers is what this is board should be all about. Not just patting people on the back for getting something done. I too want to be a positive dickie bird (I guess, not really sure what the hell that is:) ) and I also would rather stay silent than tear apart a movie that I didn't like, but I think I should change on this front if I want there to be a truly open and honest dialogue on this board. I guess I have to put my money where my keyboard is. I know this may rub people the wrong way, but I think it is the best thing to do. And I suggest more people do it. If there is a prevailing attitude that we are all aspiring to be professionals and not hobbyists, and that our criticisms should be based on that premise, then this board will become even more serious and everyone's work will improve for it.
 
Should these be judged as Oscar worthy (what ever that is) or Sundance worthy? That doesn't make much sense. All of the films will set the level at which the others should be judged by. Doesn't this make the most sense?

Take this idea on for a moment. Imagine that you are in competition with others in a football game or boxing. The shame and in your faceness is all over it. Sh#t is being talked. Crowds are yelling and screaming from the stands. The critisism is right in your face and you have to fight around it. Film doesn't give that option. You are done. You can only defend your work with words at that point. Your work has to stand on its own.

If you are a light weight, you don't fight heavy weights. You fight other light weights.

With that said, there are several stages to being a light weight. If you are in your first fight, you will most likely loose to some one that has been in a few. The same goes for your first film. It's like you have to get your ass kicked to know how to do it better, or to get an idea of how to win. If you have fought a few times and you know the game, then you can apply the past knowledge. You are still a light weight, but you are more deadly and effective with your punches.

Most film people are artistic people. More sensitive, more emotional, etc. Competition is a difficult thing for some people like that because their mental world is different. If you can't see this, you haven't made enough film.

There is the point that this site is about film and not competition. That is cool with me. The comp is for those who want to take each other on to drive the skill. If you are easily hurt, you might not want to play. I find them exciting, challenging, and I enjoy the challenge. With all that emotion swirling around, there is going to be a darker more critical side to it.

I think the next comp. will be better. Not because of the genre, but because this honesty has been finally opened and people can stop kissing each others asses for fear of being ousted by the rest of the DVX folks and loosing the comp because of their opinions of others work and not their film itself.

This doesn't open the gates to be a prick to people, but it does open a gate for realism and honesty.

...and yes, more hot chicks...and explosions...and violence...ooo and blood.
 
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