Ben Scott
Veteran
I've seen/done plenty on Red/Alexa/Amira.
Nobody does much of anything with the F65 in any arena.
FS7: Question to RED, or higher end camera owners on their FS7 interest.
- Thread starter Gene Sung
- Start date
I've seen/done plenty on Red/Alexa/Amira.
Nobody does much of anything with the F65 in any arena.
Ben Scott
Veteran
The idea that iphone 720p slomo is in any way comparable to what an Epic or Dragon can do is quite a leap. On the plus side, you're well equipped to beat C100 owners to a slomo job
morgan_moore
Major Contributor
It is comparable because the director could be using his camera for scouting etc. "do it like this but slower"
Im fully aware the actual files are doubtless crap - but people make their story boards on visual cues - like ads they see on the telly - with no concept of the effort that goes in to a top end 30s spot.
S
Im fully aware the actual files are doubtless crap - but people make their story boards on visual cues - like ads they see on the telly - with no concept of the effort that goes in to a top end 30s spot.
S
Ben Scott
Veteran
Well that's a conversation that needs to take place way before a shoot. You don't bring a knife to a gunfight, but you also need someone to tell you it's a gunfight and to tool up appropriately!
If someone told me there were some 240FPS shots in a scene I'd go and give them options for how best to capture them, as unless it is outside lighting considerations would be required too.
If someone told me there were some 240FPS shots in a scene I'd go and give them options for how best to capture them, as unless it is outside lighting considerations would be required too.
Are you saying you have shot corporate with an Alexa? Hardly the right camera for this so I would ask why since I don't think you own one.
The F65 is too much for anything but theatrical movies. It's made for that.
Ben Scott
Veteran
I've shot plenty on Red. I've seen plenty on Arri -whether Alexa or Amira. I've never shot Alexa.
I'm not talking about events stuff here - 'Corporate' runs quite a large gamut from internal training vids to high end marketing tools. For example, one of my main corporate clients is one of the largest tech/IT firms in the world and they want things nice and shiny and that is the perfect example when I used to leverage my Red into the quote and could have done the same with an Amira or similar if I'd owned that. I can now happily use the FS7 for those same jobs. I've been asked to quote for jobs with aerial sequences and similar for another internal corporate job, and so again Alexa or similar would not have been out of place!
I'm not talking about events stuff here - 'Corporate' runs quite a large gamut from internal training vids to high end marketing tools. For example, one of my main corporate clients is one of the largest tech/IT firms in the world and they want things nice and shiny and that is the perfect example when I used to leverage my Red into the quote and could have done the same with an Amira or similar if I'd owned that. I can now happily use the FS7 for those same jobs. I've been asked to quote for jobs with aerial sequences and similar for another internal corporate job, and so again Alexa or similar would not have been out of place!
Ok corporate is indeed a wide term. But what you describe looks like high end work and for that reason would fall right in the Alexa's turf because at this point you would not need run and gun. You have a crew. This is a different thing. But it's all a metter of opinion. If it's high end I would not shoot with a FS7 because they can afford something much better.
Ben Scott
Veteran
No I didn't have a crew. It was me on my own and certainly isn't what I would consider high end. It's just your bog standard talking heads and b roll, just shot nice(ish). The sort of thing I'd have done on a C100 if I'd owned one instead of a Red.
And with the point I am/was making it isn't a conversation about using the FS7 on a high end job but rather the reverse. It's about being able to do all the C300 type jobs with it AND being able to do the jobs where you would sometimes try to crowbar a camera like a Red onto the production. The 'high end' is a place where for me the cost of the camera isn't a consideration.
And with the point I am/was making it isn't a conversation about using the FS7 on a high end job but rather the reverse. It's about being able to do all the C300 type jobs with it AND being able to do the jobs where you would sometimes try to crowbar a camera like a Red onto the production. The 'high end' is a place where for me the cost of the camera isn't a consideration.
We own around 20 "mid range"cameras (1DC, BMPC etc...) and they are all paid for.Actually they tend to be paid after 3 to 4 jobs. I have a friend´s RED sitting on a shelf which goes out once a month while smaller cameras shoot everyday. Do I need to say more about camera investment? A Phantom is needed and we rent it from time to time but that´s all we do.
Even with a low light sensitive sensor we still need some light. According to physics the sensor only captures available light if any. See in the dark only IR cameras do. I did many tests with my A7s which is by far the best low light camera ever but never managed to have clean images without some light even if it was moonlight. Our eyes are my limit. I don´t need the camera to see more than what my eyes can see...
gkantziper
Esteemed Member
I've lived (and prospered) through more than one "game changer" and the FS7 is just that. e.g. rewind to the year ~ 1999 when the ~ $40,000 Sony BVW-D600 Betacam was usurped by Sony's own "Pro Line" ~ $15,000 PVW-D30(WS) Betacam. (Early DigitBeta was something only embraced by europe and the very top US markets. BetaSP still ruled in most markets until full size, and in some smaller markets, "shoe box" size DVCAMs took over everything but the biggest markets that went DigiBeta. I bought two D30s for less than the price of one D600 in '98 and 2000 and mine were wide screen models that eventually outlived the eventual extinct 4:3 600s (I pitied the D600WS guys who were late adopters and paid crazy money for the 600WS - wide screen models) that were virtually indistinguishable in quality in the hands of those who knew how to set them up properly. Many, many, many years of use of my D30s (and a 3rd D35) and then DVCAM backs made them live on for another couple years. Okay, I did also buy a b-stock DSR-500WS full size DVCAM that still sits on a a shelf in my office, but I digress....
"FrameFarmMedia" is spot on. I agree. "The FS7 came at the right time and with the right features."
In the right hands the FS7 is good enough / just right for most any level of medium to higher end professional jobs shy of multi-million dollar productions. Canon has been put back to where they came from no matter what the C300 MkII delivers. The good enough / position / point of diminishing return has again been stolen by Sony's "Pro" line. The point of diminishing return has been achieved, again, by Sony. Funny how history repeats itself.
basspig
Veteran
I shot an antique automobile event last weekend with my FS7, which turned out pretty nice. Shot it with the internal CODEC. Sadly, Youtube compression lost 90% of the IQ, so I posted some stills of the images straight from the FS7 with no tweaking, on my Dropbox account https://www.dropbox.com/sh/o1e15heg9sc6dpb/AABJHjbUE1aOblNjxJJi1An_a?dl=0
I used the Hypergamma 7 LUT, burned into the recording, as I find it easier to get nice images this way with no fooling around in post.
I used a Rokinon 16mm Cine Prime for the whole event and was very pleased with the quality. To get the full advantage of that resolution, I found that parking my eyeballs 11" from my 31" 4K monitor was about right.
Another way I judge the quality of a camera is not just its raw pixel count. If it can produce an HD picture that is stellar, then that's a huge benefit for those not wanting to deal with the huge storage/archival challenges that 4K presents. I got some great looking footage out of the FS7 at HD resolution, and with the 10-bit color depth, it has a transparent, eye-sight-like look, very high fidelity images.
One of the things many forget to factor into buying into new technology is that the NLE will likely need to be replaced with something built to handle the rigors of the new CODECs and formats. A dual Xeon workstation with a minimum of 128GB RAM and either a Titan X or a Quadro M6000 GPU, and fast SSD drives througout are the nearly mandatory requirements for working with the new formats and frame sizes.
Low light handling can be extended greatly with fast lenses. I was astonished how much brighter f/.95 is over f/2. I rarely go over 500 ISO with the faster lenses and that pushes noise to invisibility, which helps immensely with encoding for distribution. Even the darkest corners of my dimly lit studio appear brightly-lit with a fast lens. Ever since Kubrick filmed Barry Lyndon, I've been acutely aware of the value of a fast lens.
Put a raw recorder on the FS7 and that should even be significantly better than the internal CODEC, which, surprisingly, when shooting things like automobiles, does an amazing job.
More than anything else, the LENS determines the image. If the glass is no good, it matters not what sensor is behind it. Put good glass on the camera, light the scene in an aestheticly appealing manner, and do a good job of cinematography and you'll have a stunning visual experience as the result.
I used the Hypergamma 7 LUT, burned into the recording, as I find it easier to get nice images this way with no fooling around in post.
I used a Rokinon 16mm Cine Prime for the whole event and was very pleased with the quality. To get the full advantage of that resolution, I found that parking my eyeballs 11" from my 31" 4K monitor was about right.
Another way I judge the quality of a camera is not just its raw pixel count. If it can produce an HD picture that is stellar, then that's a huge benefit for those not wanting to deal with the huge storage/archival challenges that 4K presents. I got some great looking footage out of the FS7 at HD resolution, and with the 10-bit color depth, it has a transparent, eye-sight-like look, very high fidelity images.
One of the things many forget to factor into buying into new technology is that the NLE will likely need to be replaced with something built to handle the rigors of the new CODECs and formats. A dual Xeon workstation with a minimum of 128GB RAM and either a Titan X or a Quadro M6000 GPU, and fast SSD drives througout are the nearly mandatory requirements for working with the new formats and frame sizes.
Low light handling can be extended greatly with fast lenses. I was astonished how much brighter f/.95 is over f/2. I rarely go over 500 ISO with the faster lenses and that pushes noise to invisibility, which helps immensely with encoding for distribution. Even the darkest corners of my dimly lit studio appear brightly-lit with a fast lens. Ever since Kubrick filmed Barry Lyndon, I've been acutely aware of the value of a fast lens.
Put a raw recorder on the FS7 and that should even be significantly better than the internal CODEC, which, surprisingly, when shooting things like automobiles, does an amazing job.
More than anything else, the LENS determines the image. If the glass is no good, it matters not what sensor is behind it. Put good glass on the camera, light the scene in an aestheticly appealing manner, and do a good job of cinematography and you'll have a stunning visual experience as the result.
Lenilenapi
Carbonite Member
What's the difference between shooting cine EI & using a hyper gamma LuT , than shooting the hypergamma LUT in custom - except losing noise reduction and wads of color control ?
Ben Scott
Veteran
As often repeated on this forum, this is absolutely, empirically untrue. Despite you building the MCP from Tron and still having issues, plenty of people are happily cutting away Red, Alexa, FS7 or F55 footage on homebrew PCs, off the shelf iMacs and standard Macbook Pros with on problems.
mainstreetprod
Veteran
Ditto, this really shouldn't be stated as fact. I recently cut an entire feature in 4K on a 2013 mid level Imac with 16gb Ram. Playback isn't glass smooth but it's perfectly usable with Premiere timeline set at 1/4 resolution. My daughter then color corrected the footage , still in 4K, in Resolve on a desktop Mac Pro, over 5 years old.
broughtonfilm
Well-known member
I'd suggest picking up a RED One on the ultra cheap for a few thousand ;-) That way you can at least answer honestly to the question with a "yes", but then you move the conversation along quickly.... and only after locking them in, you up sell them to F5 raw :-D
Paul schefz
Well-known member
i just heard from a source at netflix that they consider the internal XAVC of the FS7 good enough for production (S-log3 and Cine-I only please)...does not mean the FS7 is the best camera out there but it means that it by far good enough for almost anything...
i have owned both scarlet and epic, the FS7 is simply better then scarlet, no question and IMO is better then epic as well because i prefer better DR over perceived better resolution....and "cinematic look" is funny to me when i see epic and dragon shooters running around with canon 24-105....and with red it all comes down to compression anyway....
non of that means that i would choose the FS7 to shoot everything and the bigger the budget the more choices one has.....
i honestly don't get why people spend all this money and time on custom boxes when they could just go down to best buy and get an iMac and be done with it....and that does not even take into consideration the insane used vale of macs....the XAVC of the FS7 is an incredibly easy to work with....
i have owned both scarlet and epic, the FS7 is simply better then scarlet, no question and IMO is better then epic as well because i prefer better DR over perceived better resolution....and "cinematic look" is funny to me when i see epic and dragon shooters running around with canon 24-105....and with red it all comes down to compression anyway....
non of that means that i would choose the FS7 to shoot everything and the bigger the budget the more choices one has.....
i honestly don't get why people spend all this money and time on custom boxes when they could just go down to best buy and get an iMac and be done with it....and that does not even take into consideration the insane used vale of macs....the XAVC of the FS7 is an incredibly easy to work with....
For some of us (rather many i suppose), building computers is a hobby. So instead of owning insanely expensive Macs in addition to powerful computers, we combine our resources into incredibly powerful computer builds
From the little i have seen from the FS7 on Vimeo and Youtube, im also asking what the added value from more expensive cameras are. I think we are more and more moving into a psychological area, where we think an Alexa is worth it, but really, a FS7 and bigger lighting budget is better for most shooters.