FS7: Question to RED, or higher end camera owners on their FS7 interest.

Lenilenapi said:
I 'm not posting to argue at all, just wondering what those things are for you? I heard that the Dragon sensor was very slow, but don't know if that's true. I'm used to Epic.



I assume you mean FS700 + 7Q? Were you recording 4K>HD on the 7Q? That's a pretty good look. Would be surprised if the FS7 wiped the floor with it. what codec were you recording with since they don't both shoot SLOg3?
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Oops yes I meant the Fs700 :)

Yes we were recording 4K>HD on the 7Q. Pro Res S-Log 2. FS7 recording XAVC-I Slog-3 Cine.

Noticeably cleaner in the shadows and much much nicer rolloff in the highlights. Not even close. And I spent an age trying to match them before eventually mathing 'down' as it were.
 
Define low light :)

Why would you use a Dragon on a shoot that can't afford lights?

That's what the A7s is for :)
 
Is it less sensitive than an EPIC?

Its a straight ahead question - don't need to go into why I don't want to shoot with an A7.
F3 was great for this.
 
I'm sure the Dragon is a superior image maker in a lot of ways. Hell, you pay 4x the amount of an FS7, you better be getting better IQ!! That said, good lighting, composition, production deisgn; i.e. all the usual suspects that make a good movie will really even those advantages out, just like shooting on a D810 / Samurai blade vs a FS7 with good production qualities will do the same.
For music videos, RED Epic and Dragon is highly desired. For feature films, a lot of low budget indies actually may prefer the FS7 due to the smaller file sizes for its internal recording vs a 6K compressed RAW of the Dragon. No self respecting DP however likes being told outright what to shoot on. It's always a discussion balancing the resources provided by the budget vs. the technical superiority of one camera system vs another.
For the OP: it really depends on where you are in your career and what you want out of the Dragon vs the FS7. The top guys on well budgeted shows always RENT from the larger camera houses like Clairmont, Alternative, Panavision, etc. For the middle to low tier camera operators it may make sense as a losing investment that will never make its money back IF it gets you connections and helps with you build your reel. Is that worth it to you, or would you rather take a safer route and put a downpayment on a Condo? At around 40K for a full Dragon system with Red SSD cards to handle that at a good compression ratio and accessories +, it becomes a life decision not just a camera purchase.
Best of luck.
 
Lenilenapi said:
Is it less sensitive than an EPIC?

Its a straight ahead question - don't need to go into why I don't want to shoot with an A7.
F3 was great for this.
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No it's not less sensitive than an Epic. I wouldn't use Epic/Dragon on something with no lights but that's just me.
 
I think the low light requirements are what separates these cameras. Certainly it's a strong case for FS7 or C100/300. If I were shooting a lot of uncontrolled lighting situations, I'd consider them. I don't though. Most cinema cameras won't see in the dark. The Alexa doesn't, neither does RED or F55. I think if you can get up to 1280 EI or maybe one more stop without horrible noise, that's good for controlled light situations. I'm waiting on Cion with the global shutter which may well be less forgiving than FS7 with native ISO 2000. It depends so much on what you shoot.

Where it gets interesting and more to the OP's post is that we've not seen how well these new higher resolution UHD and 4K cameras will do. As other's have said we've all ceded 4K space to RED but perhaps now with various logs, and way better "negatives" like Cion 4444 12 bit or the XAVC stuff we can be getting closer to the top shelf cinema cameras.
 
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I often shoot in situations where the base light level is low. Doesn't mean you're not lighting at all - often I'm augmenting with some lights , but the general level is low to begin with . Documentaries- music clubs, general interiors where you want a low footprint, night exteriors with a small crew. I love low light.
I just did some reading and unless things have changed, Dragon sounds noisy in low light. Actually I do consider this an advantage for me with FS7/F5 over the F55. Different strokes for different folks.
 
With Dragon, swap out your highlight Olpf with low a light one you gain another 1.3 stops at the bottom end. But even then both Red / Arri have never been really about lowlight. That's where Sony/canon can play ......but you pay a price .

You could argue with any camera system there is a whole lot of hidden extras with any purchase. With high end, ones of those is light .
 
I guess it's that difference between low light levels, which MX and Dragon are fine with and underexposed light levels which just about every cinema camera struggles with.

Where you are shooting doesn't sound like ideal environments for Epic or Dragon tbh. Or as mentioned above, or Alexa or similar.

It's not what they are for - I don't think that it can really be classed as a failing of the camera as that would be akin to being unhappy with a phillips head screwdriver for not being able to undo a flat head screw. That said, the Dragon is definitely better in low(er) light situations than MX.

Funnily enough, it's one of the reasons why I sold my Red and bought an FS7 - because I found myself with a requirement for more single shooter fast run and gun stuff in environments where I can't light or at least can't recce beforehand.
 
I wouldn't use the words underexposed light levels. Its only underexposed if you're camera can't get there:)
No - It's not a failing of the camera , but its a big limitation for a great deal of documentary work.
 
I agree. I've shot a couple of docs for the BBC on my old Scarlet with lots of travelling and shooting in people's bedrooms and very limited lighting solutions and to be honest it was nowhere near the correct camera for the job.

However, it totally shined whenever I got to stick some lights up.

With that in mind while I was unhappy with the footage for the docs, everyone else liked it and never saw any of the issues I did. I think we're all guilty of overthinking some of this stuff some times.
 
Agree REDs cameras are not ideal for: Run and Gun, Events, Weddings, Documentaries, etc Their market is High end Work like TV commercials, Music Videos and Films. When I used RED at minimum I need an assistance otherwise I preffer to shoot with something else.

Off course anybody can do whatever they fell with their camera but I think some tools give more flexibly for certain type of works








Ben Scott said:
I guess it's that difference between low light levels, which MX and Dragon are fine with and underexposed light levels which just about every cinema camera struggles with.

Where you are shooting doesn't sound like ideal environments for Epic or Dragon tbh. Or as mentioned above, or Alexa or similar.

It's not what they are for - I don't think that it can really be classed as a failing of the camera as that would be akin to being unhappy with a phillips head screwdriver for not being able to undo a flat head screw. That said, the Dragon is definitely better in low(er) light situations than MX.

Funnily enough, it's one of the reasons why I sold my Red and bought an FS7 - because I found myself with a requirement for more single shooter fast run and gun stuff in environments where I can't light or at least can't recce beforehand.
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No one camera does it all including the F7.

This is where you choose the right camera for the job ......docos have there own requirements . Dragon, Alexa, F65 ( if still around ) are not designed to be doco cameras. Amira on the other hand would be ideal .....or a Sony/ canon.
 
Even Amira at half price I'm pretty sure I would prefer an FS7 for Documentary work, I think booths fully equiped amira still over 2kg heavier and is not 4K . I think for documentary is more important to have the shoot rather than a perfect image



Surf it Mike said:
No one camera does it all including the F7.

This is where you choose the right camera for the job ......docos have there own requirements . Dragon, Alexa, F65 ( if still around ) are not designed to be doco cameras. Amira on the other hand would be ideal .....or a Sony/ canon.
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AndreyBlanco said:
Even Amira at half price I'm pretty sure I would prefer an FS7 for Documentary work, I think booths fully equiped amira still over 2kg heavier and is not 4K . I think for documentary is more important to have the shoot rather than a perfect image
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4k is overrated. And, imo, I'll take image quality over resolution any day of the week.

And I say that as someone who recently just sold his epic.
 
4K overrated? for "DOCUMENTARY" I find the flexibilty of cropping more important for the story telling than Nicer skin tones or DR. Also the extra 2kgs would make a huge differnt after a few hours. for me FS7 over AMIRA for Documentaries


mcgeedigital said:
4k is overrated. And, imo, I'll take image quality over resolution any day of the week.

And I say that as someone who recently just sold his epic.
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Ben Scott said:
I spent the day last Friday shooting an FS7 side by side with an FS7 and Odyssey 7Q and the FS7 absolutely wiped the floor with it just with its internal recording, let alone if I was recording pro res via an SDI recorder.

I couldn't care less about revolutions or my camera being ground-breaking. It's a tool like a hammer and it's far more important what you're hammering. It's a hell of a lot of camera/hammer for the money.
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Hmm, interesting. I haven't personally seen anything from the FS7 thus far that has wiped the floor with the FS700+7Q. Footage looks good but doesn't wipe the floor with. Looks about on par IMO. I guess I haven't seen the right footage yet.
 
AndreyBlanco said:
4K overrated? for "DOCUMENTARY" work In my opinion is more important to have THE SUBJECT on the frame fully visible with the flexibility to later crop the image if is necesary to help you to tell the story better ,rather than show that something more beautifull with nicer skin tones or more DR. don't forget you will have to carrying 2 extra Kilograms of weight in your shoulder during the filming of documentary. Not met for DOC an FS7 over AMIRA all the way
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Don't lecture to me on the advantages of 4k. I've been shooting it since 2007.

If the interview is that important, I will have a second angle, maybe even on a dolly, with a different framing that will cut much better in the edit than simply reframing the same shot.
 
Give it another week or so and hopefully the video will be done and I can post some stills for the pixel peepers but I was pretty surprised at what the FS7 was doing when I really didn't have it 1000% dialled in yet.
 
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