Question:Is Sunrise Light Normally Difficult to White Balance?

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Denniscasey

Well-known member
Beginning to experiment with light at different times of day. I was at lake in Northern Minnesota and fall foliage has brilliant colors. Got good results shooting trees surrounding lake around sunset (clear, blue sky) with manual white balance. Next, got up at sunrise and stood on dock over lake--unfortunately sun was coming up behind low clouds giving muted light. So overall lighting is sun behind clouds, surrounded by blue lake, sort of a hazy blue sky. Put down white balance card and it looked cool white, but when I tried manual white balance LCD screen showed bluish cast even thought got ABB OK indication. Tried several times and got same results and scene had bluish cast through viewfinder. So I set camera to full auto and let it white balance (ATW?) and that gave good results.

I have just begun manual white balancing so when things don't go as planned (in this case) I wonder if I did something wrong or if there are lighting conditions when manual white balance is not best way to go? I did read the post where sodium lights gave problems and maybe I have come across another difficult lighting condition?
 
Shooting outside I find it better to dial in the white balance I want to create the feel I am looking for, otherwise it's a process of getting the predominant light onto a white card and balancing the camera off this. Sunrise I often use 5600-6000K to hold the warmth in the light instad of allowing to adjust for the warmth off a white card. Test, test, test to see what you like
 
There are many commercially available white balance cards which are tinted to warm or cool the image after auto white balance. For more extreme effects you can white balance through a filter and then remove the filter (it will knock out the colour of the filter). 18% grey is the common white balance card. Manually setting the white balance won't allow you to achieve consistent results but a balance card will. Is the noon sun 5200K, 6200K, 6800K, 5834K today? With an 18% grey card who cares, the colour response will match from shot to shot, day to day.
 
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Interesting concept, 18% grey is normally used for setting exposure, white balance is always based on the colour of the light hitting the card, irrespective of whether it is grey or white. White balancing on a 18% grey under 3200K tungsten will give you a totally different setting to balancing on the same card under midday sun (at around 8000k plus in Aus) depending on where in the world you are, also a filter will adjust the cameras response the same way to compensate for the colour cast.

Underwater we white balance with the ambient light at a different depths during the dive using a correction filter to compensate for the loss of red light, then add artificial lighting, either LED, HiD or Tungsten and a specific subject distance, change the distance, then the light absorption changes and the settings change once again.

I don't know the technical side but I have always looked on white balancing has been about balancing the visible colours to produce a visually pleasing image containing the maximum spectral range in an attempt to minimise the colour correction in post. Now there's a mouth full!!
 
Question:Is Sunrise Light Normally Difficult to White Balance?

Not really. Just balance off a gray card. But do you really want to do that? Because doing that will balance out that nice golden glow, which is part of the attraction to shooting that time of day, at least for me.

The only thing that's tricky is to maintain consistency. If you want it. Because the color temp. that time of day is changing constantly, and the rate of change isn't linear.
 
There has been talk here in the past about leaving the camera set for 5600k and balancing in post.

For the times you can't come up with a good setting, that might be an option.
 
HughS said:
Shooting outside I find it better to dial in the white balance I want to create the feel I am looking for, otherwise it's a process of getting the predominant light onto a white card and balancing the camera off this. Sunrise I often use 5600-6000K to hold the warmth in the light instad of allowing to adjust for the warmth off a white card. Test, test, test to see what you like
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Thanks to all for comments. Hugh, I am advancing in using HMC40, but when you say "dial in the white balance" what HMC40 settings are you referring to to allow tuning white balance? Are they beyond the ones I am aware of which are: (1) When Auto/Manual switch is in Auto can get Automatic White Balance (ATW) and ATW lock; (2) when switch is in manual can also get presets of 3200 K and 5600 K and also do the manual white balance operation off white/gray card; (3) and there is also Color Temp setting (which Barry Green refers to on page 106 of his book and explained more in his reply to one of my earlier post questions)? When I read your helpful reply I imagined you had found a way to dial in color temperatures; for example dialing in 4500K if that is what you wanted.
 
Bruce Watson said:
Question:Is Sunrise Light Normally Difficult to White Balance?

Not really. Just balance off a gray card. But do you really want to do that? Because doing that will balance out that nice golden glow, which is part of the attraction to shooting that time of day, at least for me.

The only thing that's tricky is to maintain consistency. If you want it. Because the color temp. that time of day is changing constantly, and the rate of change isn't linear.
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With caveat that "book learning" (and help from forum) is still making up for my lack of experience I need to better understand these helpful comments quoted above. First, how do you adjust camera to capture the "golden glow" if you do not do a manual white balance to get a color reference? Do you adjust various scene file or Color Temp settings---or do you give camera time to adjust morning color temperature using automatic white balance? And I do see need to adjust for changing light conditions as you mention.

Secondly, and again "book learning" talking, I thought an accurate manual white balance from white or gray card would ensure the camera had a reference to true white and with that reference would accurately capture the "real" colors present in the scene--including the "golden glow" you refer to? However, I can see there can be exceptions--for instance as posed in my original question, when I tried manual white balance (I put white card on deck, zoomed on it to fill viewfinder, and did manual white balance procedure) I could only get a white balance that gave a bluish tint to the scene as shown in viewfinder. In that case I finally used automatic white balance which gave a good representation of scene. Dennis
 
Al MacLeod said:
There has been talk here in the past about leaving the camera set for 5600k and balancing in post.

For the times you can't come up with a good setting, that might be an option.
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Al, that is another way to get the "look" you want. I do however try to capture the actual colors and exposure that were in place at the time and use that as reference point from which to get a different look. Dennis
 
I'm very confused. If you white balance for the sunrise, then it won't look like a sunrise. The shift from very red/pink to a 'normal' daylight colour balance means the camera needs to be white balanced to the after sunrise light - then you get the marvellous reds, pinks and oranges. Hold up a card lit with red light and the camera tries to make the red back to white - quite the opposite of what you want!
 
Denniscasey said:
...how do you adjust camera to capture the "golden glow" if you do not do a manual white balance to get a color reference? Do you adjust various scene file or Color Temp settings---or do you give camera time to adjust morning color temperature using automatic white balance? And I do see need to adjust for changing light conditions as you mention.

Secondly, and again "book learning" talking, I thought an accurate manual white balance from white or gray card would ensure the camera had a reference to true white and with that reference would accurately capture the "real" colors present in the scene--including the "golden glow" you refer to? However, I can see there can be exceptions--for instance as posed in my original question, when I tried manual white balance (I put white card on deck, zoomed on it to fill viewfinder, and did manual white balance procedure) I could only get a white balance that gave a bluish tint to the scene as shown in viewfinder.
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I may be misinterpreting what you are saying, but it seems that you are thinking that a white balance is done for color accuracy. That is perhaps the wrong way to look at it. Look at it instead, as a way to remove unwanted color casts. The key here is that some color casts are desirable, while others are not.

What a white balance does in essence is to tell the camera that a target (like a neutral gray or a white, both of which have R=G=B) is supposed to be neutral. So the camera firmware does the math and makes the adjustments so that the target looks neutral; it forces R=G=B. The effect is to remove any color casts from the light that is lighting the target. So if that target is illuminated by heavy overcast skies (light that is very blue), it removes the blue cast. If the target is illuminated by candle light (very orange), it removes the orange cast.

The problem comes in deciding whether or not the cast is desirable. The orange casts from candle light, sunrises, and sunsets is often desirable. The blue casts from overcast skies is often not desirable. You have to choose. It can't be just an automatic response. If you manually white balance every scene, then every scene looks the same. If that's what you want then great. But if that's not what you want, you'll have to think more about what you want and how to accomplish it.

One way to preserve at least some of the sunrise's orange glow is to manually set the camera to expect a bluer light. Say, set the camera for 5600K. If you want less orange, set it lower, say to 4500K. If you go all the way down to 3000K, you may find that that white wall behind the heroine that has that nice romantic orange glow becomes... just a dumb white wall that's lost all its character.

Unless you're viewing the camera output on a production monitor that's still in calibration, I wouldn't much trust what the monitor shows you as it might be subtly off. IOW, don't trust that on-camera LCD panel too much. Experience is your friend. Test, test, test. Then you'll have an idea of how your camera works, and how you personally see, in real world conditions.
 
I selected following quotes from Bruce Watson's instructive (to me) comments:

Bruce's Quote: "I may be misinterpreting what you are saying, but it seems that you are thinking that a white balance is done for color accuracy. That is perhaps the wrong way to look at it. Look at it instead, as a way to remove unwanted color casts. The key here is that some color casts are desirable, while others are not."

Dennis: I was indeed looking at white balance the wrong way (color accuracy) and that "colored" all the reading I did about white balance. Now I understand comments about impact on color casts (sometimes desirable, sometimes not).

Bruce and Hugh and others talk about "setting the camera for different color temperatures" such as 5600K or 4500K or 3000K. I know I have presets of 5600K and 3200K and I have read about using Color Temp and Barry Green clarified that in reply to my earlier post by saying it can warm up or cool off a manual white balance. But when you talk about "setting the camera for different color temperatures" how do you dial in 4500K for example? Thanks to all for very informative ongoing discussion and patience to explain this critical parameter. Dennis
 
Denniscasey said:
I selected following quotes from Bruce Watson's instructive (to me) comments:
Bruce and Hugh and others talk about "setting the camera for different color temperatures" such as 5600K or 4500K or 3000K. I know I have presets of 5600K and 3200K and I have read about using Color Temp and Barry Green clarified that in reply to my earlier post by saying it can warm up or cool off a manual white balance. But when you talk about "setting the camera for different color temperatures" how do you dial in 4500K for example? Thanks to all for very informative ongoing discussion and patience to explain this critical parameter. Dennis
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Dennis That is something I don't know why Panasonic has not implemented yet the white balance in Kelvin, You find that feature in many cheap cameras, and all it takes is a firmware update.
You can increment the temp to your taste without balancing with a gray card, Probably We Panasonic users should suggest Panasonic to do this firmware update.
Felipe
 
paulears said:
I'm very confused. If you white balance for the sunrise, then it won't look like a sunrise. The shift from very red/pink to a 'normal' daylight colour balance means the camera needs to be white balanced to the after sunrise light - then you get the marvellous reds, pinks and oranges. Hold up a card lit with red light and the camera tries to make the red back to white - quite the opposite of what you want!
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Sunsets can be tricky, It all depends on what you are shooting.

Sunsets have mixed colour temperature. You get around 2000-3000 kelvin from the dipping sun and 15,000-20,000 kelvin from the overhead sky, so where you set your white balance can be tricky and will largely will depend on what is in your shot. You might get the sun and clouds looking great with one setting, but shadows and skin tones might look terrible with the same setting and you'll need to adjust the white balance for those shots. For a classic landscape with the sun dropping towards the horizon, where I want deep warm tones of red and orange, I'll set white balance to anything between 6500k and 8000k and underexpose by at least a stop. One thing I never do is manually white balance at sunset, because as you have pointed out, will strip the image of all the interesting colours that you actually want.
 
Liam Hall said:
Sunsets can be tricky, It all depends on what you are shooting.

Sunsets have mixed colour temperature. You get around 2000-3000 kelvin from the dipping sun and 15,000-20,000 kelvin from the overhead sky, so where you set your white balance can be tricky and will largely will depend on what is in your shot. You might get the sun and clouds looking great with one setting, but shadows and skin tones might look terrible with the same setting and you'll need to adjust the white balance for those shots. For a classic landscape with the sun dropping towards the horizon, where I want deep warm tones of red and orange, I'll set white balance to anything between 6500k and 8000k and underexpose by at least a stop. One thing I never do is manually white balance at sunset, because as you have pointed out, will strip the image of all the interesting colours that you actually want.
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Liam, you say "I'll set white balance to anything between 6500K and 8000K..." and others also reference "setting white balance" to some value. Felipe also above mentions "you can increment the temp to your taste..." Hugh and Bruce and others say similar things. but gentlemen with HMC40 how do I "set white balance" whether it is to particular Kelvin value or "to my taste?"

As I mentioned in earlier posts the only ways I know to do white balance are (1) presets of 3200 and 5600K, (2) ATW, (3) manual white balance; (4) Color Temp adjustment and of those only Color Temp seems to allow me to do what you are saying--is that adjustment the one you refer to when you "set white balance to some value?"
 
Denniscasey said:
Liam, you say "I'll set white balance to anything between 6500K and 8000K..." and others also reference "setting white balance" to some value. Felipe also above mentions "you can increment the temp to your taste..." Hugh and Bruce and others say similar things. but gentlemen with HMC40 how do I "set white balance" whether it is to particular Kelvin value or "to my taste?"

As I mentioned in earlier posts the only ways I know to do white balance are (1) presets of 3200 and 5600K, (2) ATW, (3) manual white balance; (4) Color Temp adjustment and of those only Color Temp seems to allow me to do what you are saying--is that adjustment the one you refer to when you "set white balance to some value?"
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I should add Barry clarified that Color Temp is only a plus/minus setting RELATIVE to some white balance you have already set. So Color Temp does not really seem to allow "setting" some white balance value.
 
Denniscasey said:
Liam, you say "I'll set white balance to anything between 6500K and 8000K..." and others also reference "setting white balance" to some value. Felipe also above mentions "you can increment the temp to your taste..." Hugh and Bruce and others say similar things. but gentlemen with HMC40 how do I "set white balance" whether it is to particular Kelvin value or "to my taste?"

As I mentioned in earlier posts the only ways I know to do white balance are (1) presets of 3200 and 5600K, (2) ATW, (3) manual white balance; (4) Color Temp adjustment and of those only Color Temp seems to allow me to do what you are saying--is that adjustment the one you refer to when you "set white balance to some value?"
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Ah, I was talking generally, not specific to a camera. I actually didn't realise this was posted in the Panasonic section!

I think it's appalling the way manufacturers cripple video cameras by giving them so few manual choices, even a basic stills camera has more settings than you have available. Anyway, if you can't dial in kelvin or can't choose additional presets like "cloud" or "shade" on the HMC I'd advise shooting it 5600K. The difference in colour balance at higher kelvin numbers isn't so great as it is at lower numbers, so you're still in the ballpark i.e. a Kelvin setting between 2000K and 4000K is dramatic and noticeable, but between 5000 and 7000 the difference is far less noticeable. You could also do a manual white balance using blue as the target, though that can be hit or miss depending on the target. I hope all that makes sense - I had a long lunch...
 
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There was a discussion about color balance a while back (searched, couldn't find it). The impression I came away with was that the sensors of video cameras are balanced for daylight..red green and blue sensors saturated and giving the best performance with lowest noise at 5600k. The act of color balancing a camera is boosting individual channels to conform the sensor output to deliver the "right" color. Perhaps someone will recognize this past discussion and provide a link. The point I gathered, you either adjust the balance in camera arbitrarily or in post...also arbitrarily. You don't capture reality with a camera, you get an approximation within the limits of lenses, circuitry and displays of the scene you point the camera at.
The bottom line for me was to let the camera gather the lowest noise image possible (at 5600k) and balance in post.
 
Excellent discussion all and thank you. After years of spare time video with camera on "full auto" I am relatively new to trying to improve while learning HMC40. For a few months now I have successfully used manual white balance to adjust for indoor lighting or bright sunlit outdoor lighting. Then I ran up against the situation in my thread starter post where I was dealing with a cloudy sunrise bluish cast. I had been thinking white balance was giving me color accuracy but Bruce corrected that in an early post when he said "it seems that you are thinking that a white balance is done for color accuracy. That is perhaps the wrong way to look at it. Look at it instead, as a way to remove unwanted color casts. The key here is that some color casts are desirable, while others are not." With that new perspective I am now having trouble understanding how HMC40 "decides" what is white. Previous posts have undoubtedly given me answers, but it helps me if I phrase in my terms. I see several possibilities/questions:

1. When I push the white balance button to do manual white balance does camera actually set R=G=B (to paraphrase Bruce's earlier post) based only on the color I am pointing at when I do this? In other words, to be extreme, if I pointed camera at green card and did white balance would camera "define" green as being white--when I then videotaped green trees would they appear white? I can try the experiment, but would like to understand the theory first.

2. To go back to my thread starter, my white card was reflecting bluish cast of lighting conditions. So, when I did white balance on that card with its bluish cast did camera "define" white as having a bluish cast and video I took would have a bluish cast? With the cloud cover and all I could not really tell if there was a definite bluish cast, but I believe posts in this thread would say the camera would have removed the bluish cast when I videotaped the scene.

If I could get some clarification on those points it would help me grasp this critical concept. Thank you, Dennis
 
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