C100: Question about timeline settings.

nedcam

nedcam

Well-known member
Hi,

I am setting up two C100 cameras for tomorrow's shoot, so if I could get an answer today from some gurus today that would be swell!

I am producing a gala video for projection, the client does not care about streaming. They are providing us with legacy (finished) videos that will be the majority of the media assets and they were shot in 24P. However, my editor prefers 30, but that's because he usually edits for the end use of being streamed and the web likes 30.

So my question is: Which will look better when projected:

• A timeline setting of 30 when the majority of footage is provided as 24?

• A timeline setting of 24, knowing it is for projection at a banquet?

I am fairly certain he is editing on X but it may be Premiere.

Thanks!

Ned
 
Since when does the web like 30?

I shoot and upload everything to the web at 24p. Sometimes TV prefers 30, but I've never heard of web preferring 30.

If you shoot in 24p and put it in a 30p timeline, it won't look right. There will be juttering, or whatever terminology is correct to describe the issue you'll have. So, shoot at the same frame rate as you plan to upload it at. If you already have 24p footage, then you'll want to put it in a 24p timeline and upload at 24p.


So, from what I gather, you're saying the editor is saying that 30p works better not for the web in particular, but for streaming on the web in particular. I have very little experience with streaming so don't know much on that subject. I did shoot a few months ago with a C300 streaming to about 20,000 people and we shot that in 24p.

But, you said you're not streaming this video. So, then the only reason that you would export and have the timeline in 30p is because...your editor "prefers" 30p? Either I'm missing something or you've hired an idiot editor who doesn't know how to change his project settings to 24p.

It's not like it's an entirely different editing experience and skillset to edit in 24p vs 30p. Just change the project settings to 24p. Takes 10 seconds to do so.
 
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Interesting!

The cool thing about the web is you are not constrained to any local TV standard or past constraints.
For example I see no reason why you can't upload 50/60P for web video going forward.
24P seems to be a bit of a throwback to film or an artistic choice if you are doing a narrative.
People watching web videos will get used to better frame rates and resolutions because it's moving faster than film or broadcast can ever hope to keep up with.

(Sorry don't want to hijack the topic)
 
My thought exactly: If it's not for streaming then why not 24? Wild card is the projector. Aren't they always 30?

And YT and Vimeo suggest uploading at 29.97. I just don't want the jittering, especially since it will be project 12' wide.

Thanks for your input. I'll let you know how it goes Sept 2nd. I always sneak in the back to watch and scarf up free dinner and drinks.
 
nedcam said:
Wild card is the projector. Aren't they always 30?

And YT and Vimeo suggest uploading at 29.97. I just don't want the jittering, especially since it will be project 12' wide.
Click to expand...
I don't know about consumer projectors, but consider the high end projectors used at movies theaters for, well, just about every movie ever, at 24p. And on much bigger screens than 12'. Well, back to lower end projectors, one of the guys I work with has a $3-4,000 projector, and he's played various 24p projects on it.

I remember when first started I filmed most of my work in 30p, and had reservations about filming in 24p due to stutter (or whatever technical term you want to call it). Eventually I started filming in 24p and have found that isn't really an issue.


Vimeo recommends 30p? That's not what I've read...

https://vimeo.com/help/compression
"Frame rate
When preparing your video for upload, it’s best to maintain the video’s native frame rate when compressing your video. If your footage exceeds 60 FPS, we will automatically reduce the frame rate. If there is an option for keyframes, choose the same value you used for frame rate. Important: Always choose “constant” frame rate instead of “variable” frame rate."
 
nedcam said:
...why not 24? ... And YT and Vimeo suggest uploading at 29.97.
Click to expand...

Or why not:

- 24P only if you are expecting a theatrical release,
- 25/29.97/30 etc only if you are expecting a TV broadcast (choose right one for your broadcast area or international market),
- 50/60P for the web

Get as much data up there as you can, it's not like the good old days when even streaming 480 was painful.

Make it cinematic by the content, not because you've hit a semi-mythical 24P setting.

Tech is changing so fast, re-evaluating what you shoot and can present to the end user should happen regularly.

My 2c... I'm interested because I'm going to start a new web series in 2 weeks, it's web only so why follow all these other conventions that have nothing to do with the web or what a smartphone, monitor or modern TV set can display.
 
Why not 60p for the web? Well aside from the argument of aesthetic, film look, blah, blah, blah, one of my biggest arguments against it is then you need to set your shutter speed to 1/120 for everything, which mean you lose a stop and a half of light compared to shooting at 1/48 shutter at 24p. I guess if you're just shooting daylight scenes it doesn't matter much, but most projects have indoor and/or night scenes as well.

Video cameras have become more sensitive to light, but they aren't to a point yet where losing a stop and a half of light is not going to lower image quality when you have to shoot at ISO 6400 instead of 2500, for example.
 
Consumer PJs do just fine displaying 24p content. I do my final QC on a Pany 8000 thrown on a 102" screen. 24, 60 pretty much native for most PJs. 30? nope.
 
Eric Coughlin said:
I guess if you're just shooting daylight scenes it doesn't matter much, but most projects have indoor and/or night scenes as well.
Click to expand...
Good answer!

My project is mostly outdoors in the bright Gold Coast sun so I'm biased!

That's why I think choosing the right frame rate etc for the project is a good idea, not just favouring one, when you have a bunch to choose from on the web.
 
Damn. I should have taken care of this days earlier since I have to hit the pillow in two hours. My editor did a test and we have some interlace artifacting. I will run down whether it is 30 going into a 24 timeline or vice versa, but whichever is LESS, that's what we'll go with. The answer will be in my In Box when I awake.

I don't want that whatever you call it...

Thanks!
 
Well if you shoot 30 PSF on the C100 Mark I, and don't change the clips settings to progressive in Premiere, which you had to do in Premiere 6 (not sure about CC), then you'll get interlacing in the timeline. It's a simple thing to fix in the Premiere settings. Final Cut may have needed a similar fix in settings; not sure.

There's an option to shoot 24 PSF, but it makes more sense to shoot, I think it's just called 24p, so then you don't have to deal with that interlacing issue that happens to PSF clips.
 
We decided that since I will be doing the new shooting (yesterday's gig) I'd do 30, which I prefer unless it's dramatic (which I do less and less), the majority of footage would then be 30. However, since we have this 24 legacy video which may be just 25-35% of the visuals, if we do a 24 timeline and bring my 30 into it, that will look better and no interlacing. The gurus felt if the editor makes a 30 timeline and brings 24 into it, that would have aliasing, so we're doing a 24 timeline in Premiere and bring our 30 into it.

Thanks everyone for your input.
 
Reminds me of the time I shot a wedding with seven cameras and four cameramen. One of the cameras was accidentally left on 30p while the other six were on 24p. Fortunately that camera was just jib shots so didn't get used a whole lot in the final edit, but the look of the motion of putting 30p into a 24p timeline still did bother me. It still needs to blend frames for it to work, which looks off.

Always best to film all cameras at the same frame rate is my opinion.

Also, I don't believe aliasing and interlacing are the proper terms for the issues you should be having with mixing frame rates. Though, you could get interlacing if you don't set clip and project settings correctly, that is a separate issue from mixing frame rates (assuming you didn't shoot interlaced) and can be easily fixed by simply setting the settings correctly in the editor.
 
If the previously finished footage provided for the project is in 24p it is best to stick with that for consistency I think. I don't know how a C100 handles it but choosing "P" over PSF on my older Canon meant it just dropped one field, cutting vertical resolution in half. PSF is a time coherent progressive frame buffered and recorded in two sequential fields. It is treated by an NLE as a progressive frame. With interlaced recording the frame is not time coherent as each field is captured sequentially. That has to be deinterlaced for time coherence.
A modern video projector isn't going to care one way or the other. Most actively refresh the screen at rates that are evenly divisible by 24 or 30fps frame rates. With PSF pull down removal is automatic. My Bolex only records 24p raw, but the HDMI monitor output is 24fps imbedded in 1080p/30, 1080p/60, or 1080i/60 for broader compatibility with video EVF's. It still plays as 24fps after pull down removal at whatever the screen refresh rate of the display is. The most common refresh rates these days are 120 or 240 fps. Without interpolation 24, 30, or 60 fps frames are just repeated at the refresh rate to eliminate flicker.
But mixing different frame rates in an NLE editing timeline can cause problems for anything other than a straight cuts only assembly.
 
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