bill totolo
Veteran
Depends on how clients perceive these cameras once they're in the field.
Pricing F5 F55
- Thread starter Rob187
- Start date
Depends on how clients perceive these cameras once they're in the field.
bruceallen
Well-known member
Personally I would if renting - but that's mainly because of VFX. If your VFX artist is $600 per day and you save them a few hours of fighting rolling shutter issues, you just paid for the rental price difference. Also, by shooting 4K to the camera instead of to an external recorder, my whole setup is lighter (saving money) and there are less sound issues due to the raw module's fan.
BTW, I'm sure that raw sounds cool to clients and will pay for itself in that alone... however apart from the frame rate advantages, my prediction is that the difference between raw and 600mbps S-Log will be smaller than everyone seems to think.
Most of the big movies shooting RED convert the footage to 10bit Log DPX sequences with only cursory R3D settings. Eg Prometheus, Girl With the Dragon Tattoo, Spiderman... they find settings that work and practically never go back to the original R3D and change them. What I've learned is that most professionals very seldom spend a ton of time tweaking the raw file development!
If you set the white balance and exposure vaguely right in camera, I don't see how it really hurts to convert to lightly-compressed 10bit log in camera unless your settings are drastically wrong. Yes, having a higher data rate will be nice for high-detail shots and probably the software debayer and color space conversions will be slightly higher quality... but I'm not 100% sure that you'll see it! Tests are needed...
Is it really worth the fan noise, weight and storage costs? Unless of course SxS Pro cards are just exorbitantly priced compared to AXS?
Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com
Kolor-Pikker
Well-known member
That's because to them RAW is a safety buffer, not so much as a creative tool. Before RAW you had to pay way more attention to color, gamma and knee during the shoot, especially in multi-cam setups, with RAW you just setup each camera with the same general parameters and then you just point & shoot.
bruceallen
Well-known member
But shooting to very wide-dynamic range Log gives you almost the same safety buffer as RAW.
If you could pull a ton more out of RAW than you could Log, then the pros would go back to the RAW files more often. But it sounded like the guy grading Prometheus NEVER went back to the RAW - he used Log DPX files that were all developed using blanket settings by his assistant. If the RED Epic had shot Log DPX files instead of RAW, the picture would have been exactly the same (well, assuming they got over the disk space issues!).
And you get: no fan, less weight, less storage needs, quicker post workflow.
In exchange: you have to set exposure and white balance to something just semi vaguely right.
Seems like a good tradeoff to me!
I'm just wandering if a lot of people who are keen on RAW have ever played with a good Log DPX file, from, say a film scan, or Alexa or RED... try it - you'd be surprised!
Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com
Nate Weaver
Veteran
You know, it would be nice if street prices would get out.
A month ago, it wasn't such a big deal to not know exactly how big the expenditure is going to be, but now we're closer to 6-8 weeks away and I'd like to be able to plan.
Yeesh.
A month ago, it wasn't such a big deal to not know exactly how big the expenditure is going to be, but now we're closer to 6-8 weeks away and I'd like to be able to plan.
Yeesh.
Viddovation
Veteran
Yeah, it'd also be nice to get confirmation whether there will be any incentive for F3 owners, and the terms of any such incentive. At one point they indicated they "hadn't ruled it out" - but many of us intend to sell our F3s as part of the transitions. It would suck if they announce a rebate, and you realize you did something to disqualify (like sell your F3, or already buy your F5/F55) just a week or two before the rebate announcement.
Nate Weaver
Veteran
Yes and yes. Last I heard it was under serious consideration as well. And yes I am nervous I'd do something to muck it up.
Thomas Kist
Active member
over here no indication whatsoever that Sony is willing to help F3 owners to move to F5/55.
I'm putting together a deal this very moment but no mention of a rebate.
Probably will come after the initial wave of early adapters payed the full price,
to reel the others in.
I'm putting together a deal this very moment but no mention of a rebate.
Probably will come after the initial wave of early adapters payed the full price,
to reel the others in.
Viddovation
Veteran
The only mention I heard of a possible F3 owner incentive was from Sony USA. I'm by no means counting on it, but it sure would make the choice easier.
If Sony's really crafty the rebate won't be for the camera brain, but for accessories. F3 owners who buy an F5 or F55 in the qualifying period get a $2500 rebate for also buying a raw recorder and at least 512GB in media. That'd be sneaky.
If Sony's really crafty the rebate won't be for the camera brain, but for accessories. F3 owners who buy an F5 or F55 in the qualifying period get a $2500 rebate for also buying a raw recorder and at least 512GB in media. That'd be sneaky.
starcentral
Veteran
When discussing RAW vs LOG keep in mind the bit-depth has all that much more to do with it. I've recently formed the opinion that 10-bit SLOG on the F3 just doesn't cut it, and this will be even more true with higher dynamic range cameras like the F5/F55. The reason of course is overall less quantization (or steps) of data per stop which worsens (lessens) quite exponentially when you get into the compressed highlight region.
Who ever graded Prometheus, surely never did so in 10-bit. 16-bit RAW will kill LOG just in the matter of data quantization alone. ie. 75 steps per stop with 10-bit LOG versus 5400 steps per stop with 16-bit RAW. Not to mention RAW is linear so you are getting equal steps per stop unlike SLOG.
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Matt Gottshalk
Resident Preditor
No, not really.
starcentral
Veteran
I absolultely agree. The reason in my previous post.
I think people are forgetting that the 10bit DPX's used on these film are actually still the OFFLINE edit files. This is later conformed back to RED's original R3D files via EDL/XML then output again to a much higher quality 4K image that will go to the coloring process, then sent back again. I do not believe any of these films are working with 10bit DPX for online edit, just not happening, thats an offline file. Specially for the 4K films, they usually go back to conform from the original file for the final color passes.
Dont know where you people are getting your info from... but it sounds like a lot of hogwash.
RAW is NOT treated like point and shoot, clearly you've never shot raw or owned a raw shooting camera, or shot on a larger budget production. The utmost in care is taken to the image quality. The DIT's, Camera Tech's AC's, VFX supervisor, ect... all have careful attention to whats needed. DPs do not point and shoot. In fact I know that most DP's who shoot with RED actually try to get their image on the monitor as close to a final look as possible with the metadata.
Dont know where you people are getting your info from... but it sounds like a lot of hogwash.
RAW is NOT treated like point and shoot, clearly you've never shot raw or owned a raw shooting camera, or shot on a larger budget production. The utmost in care is taken to the image quality. The DIT's, Camera Tech's AC's, VFX supervisor, ect... all have careful attention to whats needed. DPs do not point and shoot. In fact I know that most DP's who shoot with RED actually try to get their image on the monitor as close to a final look as possible with the metadata.
starcentral
Veteran
^ no obviously its not point and shoot, and don't take it so literally, but less attention can be paid when it comes to exposure on RAW than with LOG because of knee region. That's a simple fact of LOG vs RAW.
Highlights are WAY more baked in with LOG than with linear RAW.
Highlights are WAY more baked in with LOG than with linear RAW.
KyleProhaska
Veteran
Anybody who thinks of RAW that way will never ever benefit from its greatest strengths. It's hardly a point and shoot excuse. Just like anything else...there's a right way to use it to benefit from it the most.
bruceallen
Well-known member
No. That's my point - it was!
Pick any big movie shot on film: chances are very high that it was Telecine'd to 10bit Log DPX, then graded from that.
The Avengers was graded from 10-bit Log DPX files - I know because I worked on a bunch of VFX shots for it for the trailer.
The Dictator was graded from 10-bit Log DPX files - I delivered VFX for the feature (and designed his beard!)
Prometheus was graded from 10-bit Log DPX files - I asked the guy who graded it.
Underworld Awakening was graded from 10-bit Log DPX files - the guy who graded it said so.
10-bit Log is approximately equivalent to 12-bit linear because Log is a more intelligent quantization scheme.
16-bit RAW is overkill - the sensor isn't really getting 65536 noiseless levels of detail. I suspect that maybe we are getting, max, around 14 bits of real linear tonal detail.
The difference between a noisy 16-bit linear signal and (12-bit linear equivalent) 10-bit Log with a little noise that acts as dithering is pretty slight, IMHO.
Um, my info is from chatting in person to Stephen Nakamura, the guy who graded Prometheus. And from personally working on loads of 10-bit Log footage while doing trailers for large Hollywood films.
RED has confused everyone, including you. Sorry.
Quick question: how do you go back to the RAW file for a VFX shot? You can't.
Do you really think that every time they change the grade, they go back and re-do the VFX to match?
Offline edit files these days are usually 8-bit DNxHD36 Avid files.
Online is 10-bit Log DPX. SOMETIMES (very rarely) 16-bit Log DPX. A few years back, several software packages couldn't even load 16-bit Log DPX!
Yes, There is talk about moving from the DPX standard to ACES - a 16-bit float OpenEXR format - but this is met with great consternation currently and is not the standard yet.
Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com
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This is odd because I got conflicting info from a friend of mine on this saying that the offline was sent to conform back to the R3D files before hitting grading, does this mean from the 5K R3D files they spat out the 10bit for final pass? and I was told a 12-bit process was the normal and thats what was scanned from film and handled for color timing was all 12-bit...
bruceallen
Well-known member
Yes. Well, "final pass" is a bit of a misnomer, considering that VFX needs those files a little bit ahead of time in order to, you know, add the giant spaceships. In this case it was even trickier because of all of the stereo issues.
But the standard is that in the end, the VFX vendor delivers a 10-bit Log file that is really flat. Then that is graded.
BTW I'm pretty sure they graded 2K files, not 5K. 5K realtime stereo playback is a bit demanding even for A-list productions!
Maybe your friend is thinking of a the fact that film scans are often done at 12-bit linear scanner... then saved out to file as 10-bit Log DPX.
In the 90s the film industry generally came to the consensus that 12-bit linear could be efficiently encoded as 10-bit Log and it has been the standard for a long time.
Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com
Yeah I have a feeling that was where his information was from because hes in VFX so maybe he's talking from what they received.
And I'm really surprised if they finished all in only 2K... didn't they make a big deal about being able to show it in 4K equipped theaters? So were there 2 separate masters, a 2K 3D file and a 4K 2D maybe?
I gotta look through my film mags, I know one of them has a big article on it, for the post info.
Either way, back on topic... I dont think anyone is not caring about exposure because you're shooting RAW. In fact its the opposite. you can really screw up your image if you dont make sure you're exposed properly because you're used to looking at metadata instead of the RAW.
When I'm shooting with my camera, I'm checking my RAW to see everything, I'm making sure that I'm exposed properly all the time. RAW over exposed is actually not as forgiving as Alexa or F3 over exposed. It clips much harder, I have first hand with this on something I was testing. The highlights blow horribly on my R3D files, but same type of footage shot with my F3 with S-log was handled much better.
If you dont expose properly while shooting raw, you just blew your shot, theres no fixing it with metadata. There is no excuse for bad cinematography. You're either good and know what you're doing, or bad and dont know what you're doing.
And I'm really surprised if they finished all in only 2K... didn't they make a big deal about being able to show it in 4K equipped theaters? So were there 2 separate masters, a 2K 3D file and a 4K 2D maybe?
I gotta look through my film mags, I know one of them has a big article on it, for the post info.
Either way, back on topic... I dont think anyone is not caring about exposure because you're shooting RAW. In fact its the opposite. you can really screw up your image if you dont make sure you're exposed properly because you're used to looking at metadata instead of the RAW.
When I'm shooting with my camera, I'm checking my RAW to see everything, I'm making sure that I'm exposed properly all the time. RAW over exposed is actually not as forgiving as Alexa or F3 over exposed. It clips much harder, I have first hand with this on something I was testing. The highlights blow horribly on my R3D files, but same type of footage shot with my F3 with S-log was handled much better.
If you dont expose properly while shooting raw, you just blew your shot, theres no fixing it with metadata. There is no excuse for bad cinematography. You're either good and know what you're doing, or bad and dont know what you're doing.
bruceallen
Well-known member
Prometheus was absolutely, definitely, finished in 2K. Confirmed multiple times by the guy who did it. The 2D version was made from the 3D version as another pass. It was not 4K.
Shooting in 5K is extremely useful for stereo because you have to do a lot of lining up the mirrors, convergence and disto6rtion correction so a lot of the recorded image is thrown out. Also - to make good 4:4:4 2K, you need to start with a > 2K Bayer sensor image.
Maybe Prometheus will be remastered in 4K in the future but for now any other info is just propaganda
There are a lot of movies that want to pretend they were finished in 4K... but no, they haven't been. And then you have crazy ol' Peter Jackson, who finished 4K stereo 48fps... that's 4x the resolution, 2x the frame rate and 2x the eyes = 16x the data rate of a good old 2K feature. Ouch!
Anyway, back to F55 vs F5 price... yeah, you can see why the F55 with its 600mbps 60fps 4K is so attractive to me. That said, I'm still not 100% convinced with what I've seen in terms of skin tones. They kinda look like RED skin tones, which is not a good thing for me personally.
Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com
Shooting in 5K is extremely useful for stereo because you have to do a lot of lining up the mirrors, convergence and disto6rtion correction so a lot of the recorded image is thrown out. Also - to make good 4:4:4 2K, you need to start with a > 2K Bayer sensor image.
Maybe Prometheus will be remastered in 4K in the future but for now any other info is just propaganda
There are a lot of movies that want to pretend they were finished in 4K... but no, they haven't been. And then you have crazy ol' Peter Jackson, who finished 4K stereo 48fps... that's 4x the resolution, 2x the frame rate and 2x the eyes = 16x the data rate of a good old 2K feature. Ouch!
Anyway, back to F55 vs F5 price... yeah, you can see why the F55 with its 600mbps 60fps 4K is so attractive to me. That said, I'm still not 100% convinced with what I've seen in terms of skin tones. They kinda look like RED skin tones, which is not a good thing for me personally.
Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com