Pricing F5 F55

nyvz said:
I understand what you are saying but I think you have it a bit off. It is trivial to batch change R3D files color/gamma mode, so recording different gamma/color in camera and external is a non issue in my opinion. If anything the limitation that one might want to externally record redlogfilm, but monitoring in redlogfilm is a bad idea and there is no way to monitor redcolor3 and send redlogfilm to recorder, so an external lut box would be needed.
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When you want to be able to record 1080p to external recorder that does not need color/gamma change and wish to record redlogfilm internally is what I'm saying.
 
Steve Castle said:
We don't know if the camera is using a regular bayer, it may be using a Q67 double-bayer CFA like the F65. Also, we don't know the real resolution of the sensor.

The F5 is said to use the sensor from the FS700, which is a 11.6MP sensor, and the F55 based on the other thread is also 11.6MP, ample resolution for 4K (8.3MP) even with bayer. So both cameras should resolve a full 4K resolution.

Also, 16-bit RAW is only useful if your camera has a 16-bit ADC on the sensor. The F65 supposedly does have a 16-bit ADC on sensor, but that's a rarity, I'm sure the Red doesn't have one and neither the F5/F55. Also, RAW on the Q67 double-bayer sensor is very different from a classic bayer, each pixel is panchromatic, meaning that its more like a regular image and doesn't use any debayering process.
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The F5 & F55 sensor or 4096 x 2160 with effective 8.9MP and are bayer pattern. I don't expect we will see 4000 lines of resolution was my point.
 
These prices are all rough guesses because no official pricing has been announced outside of Japan. No conspiracy theories here-- Sony just has not announced. Vendors just want to book some pre-sales and I can't blame them. But await official numbers before making price proclamations.

Ned
 
Thanks guys, the price just seemed so much, I was hoping it was closer to £14,000.

Does anyone know when prices will be announced? will it be this month? or by the end of the year?
 
The Japanese prices have been announced as I said in a prior message. You can guess prices in your respective country based on the Japanese prices.
 
starcentral said:
When you want to be able to record 1080p to external recorder that does not need color/gamma change and wish to record redlogfilm internally is what I'm saying.
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The color space is just metadata when recording RAW. You can set it to whatever you want in post. You just have to watch your posts to make sure you have a correct exposure. EVERYTHING is metadata except for aperture, shutter speed, resolution and compression I believe. Think about that.

Now all the settings that are just metadata when recording internally are baked in when recording externally. This is where you need to take great care in your settings and make sure your shot looks exactly the way you want it. You can load setting files you have created from redcine-x pro which goes a long way to making sure you get the "style" you want.
 
nsoltz said:
The Japanese prices have been announced as I said in a prior message. You can guess prices in your respective country based on the Japanese prices.
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Yes I think its been discussed that typically Japanese prices are higher than North American ones, so there is still hope for a decent price here in NA.


Sfernald said:
The color space is just metadata when recording RAW. You can set it to whatever you want in post. You just have to watch your posts to make sure you have a correct exposure. EVERYTHING is metadata except for aperture, shutter speed, resolution and compression I believe. Think about that.

Now all the settings that are just metadata when recording internally are baked in when recording externally. This is where you need to take great care in your settings and make sure your shot looks exactly the way you want it. You can load setting files you have created from redcine-x pro which goes a long way to making sure you get the "style" you want.
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Yes with RAW color space is chosen later, but what color space options do you have via HD-SDI or HDMI for simultaneous recording? Can you select RedColor2 + RedGamma2 for example?
 
I just looked at the FS700 for fun to see the relation between Japan and UK prices.... and there's an 15% difference.

Assuming the same would apply to the F55 and F5 that would land the F55 at about 18-19.000 pounds ex tax.... that makes me happy again :)
 
Surely you can see how unreasonable your request is... offering an F5 under $10,000 when Sony's got lousy cash flow, no profits, is chalking up massive losses, and has shrunk to less than 1/10th its worth in a little over a decade (plummeting 53% last year and another 37% this year). They're out of cash, nobody will lend them money because they're losing it at an astonishing rate and their credit rating is now a Baa3 with a negative outlook (meaning it is likely to be downgraded again soon), and now you'd like them to cut their prices in half, thus wiping out any profit margin they may have had?

Sheesh, cut 'em some slack. Kicking them in the face while they're down is hardly likely to lead them to prosperity. The F5 seems like it will be very reasonably priced compared to its competition. Sony's on the ropes, it looks to me like they're making a Hail Mary pass by trying to build exactly the cameras people would actually want to buy -- let 'em make a fair profit on them.
 
LOL
Have to agree with Barry;
saying this, Sony has to regain its costumer base and only way with todays market is to make unbelievable product that can be used and purchased, not rent, by many...
 
And it seems like that's what they're trying to do. They've had a really rough time recently, and it seems like they have woken up and intend to produce highly competitive products now. So let 'em! Our world is vastly better off with a healthy Sony and a healthy Panasonic and a healthy BlackMagic and a healthy Red. Seeing one of these behemoths (or former behemoths) fall, serves nobody's interest (except for the owners of the remaining companies, obviously, who would then have leeway to raise prices).
 
camcorders_1.jpg
The reason I say an F5 should be under $10,000 is because blackmagic, out of nowhere can get half way there for $3000.

Now sony with there years of experience and manufacturing knowledge, factories and engineers should be able to make an amazing camera like the F5 affordable.
And hence, sell millions of units, and perhaps turn themselves around. How unreasonable is that? They basically invented video cameras for consumers!


 
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sebben said:
The reason I say an F5 should be under $10,000 is because blackmagic, out of nowhere can get half way there for $3000.
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With a sensor pushing many less pixels, at a top frame rate of 30.

Remember price vs. mhz, memory bandwidth, all these things, they're not linear in costs. Sony is doing many more things than BM, on every front. What they're getting out of the sensor, what they're doing with it onboard, and what interfaces they're providing for expansion, it all surpasses the BMC.

Also keep in mind, because Blackmagic is pushing the envelope with suppliers, they are running into the same problems Red has had over the years. Sony on the other hand tends not to mess up on those issues. They have a track record of delivering on time, with few or zero issues.
 
sebben said:
The reason I say an F5 should be under $10,000 is because blackmagic, out of nowhere can get half way there for $3000.
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There's a saying out there about paying 10 times as much for an extra 10% in performance. I've found it to be true more times than not.

I had a set of cinemodded Zeiss ZF lenses, worth about $10k, that I eventually switched out for Arri Ultra Primes. If a film student were to do a simple comparison test of footage shot on either lens, they might scratch their head about why someone would pay $70k for glass when the $10k glass looks just as good. Under the right circumstances, the Zeiss ZF lenses hold up incredibly well.

Under adverse conditions, the reasons for paying a premium become clear - superior mechanics, durability, and design. No telescoping, fronts don't rotate, matching gear placement across the set, matching aperture across the set, long focus throws, flare resistant, sturdiness of the PL mount... the list goes on.

The fact is, Sony's entitled to charge whatever price they want to charge. They don't owe us a cheap camera. And practically speaking, they'll charge what they expect will maximize total profit. A price too low means less profit per unit, a price too high means too few units sold. It's a balance.

One thing to keep in mind - professional products cost more, but tend to get more customer attention and faster service. Consumer, and even prosumer products may get some firmware updates, but no personalized attention. You're one of millions buying the next piece of plastic. Personally, i'm happy to pay a premium to get treated like a human, and to know that if my camera fails the company will make it right - quickly, and may even send me a loaner while they work on mine.

At $3,000 a unit, I wouldn't hold my breath on Blackmagic Design giving individual customers that sort of attention.
 
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