F35: Preferring F35 over Dragon

i got off the red train because i am not a fan of dragon but i just watched this and there really wasn't anything there that jumped out at me in terms of technical deficiencies, maybe i was distracted by what was actually happening and what was said or that i just have no clue what this is about (guys in costumes running around, tempting lady(?) guys sitting around talking about dreams and sins and god?) but i started skipping around at some point, so that is my fault....
either way, i think there are better ways to try and show that dragon is not all that....
 
Not particularly talking about this clip. But with RED footage it's always hard to know how much of it is really the camera and how much are just other factors. I'm not a RED fan, I admit. I don't care for the workflow, I don't find the cameras particularly easy to work with and I don't care for the company's philosophy. But the cameras are capable of good images. I just find them a bit inconsistent, if you will. But like I said the camera is not always to blame.

RED's curse and blessing is to appeal to both high-end and low-end. On one hand they can sell in volume to the low end and still play with the big boys. But this is also their downfall.

Basically everything you find shot on an Alexa online will have gone trough not only proper post-production but also proper production. I have never seen any Alexa footage online shot with cheap Rokinon lenses or old Nikons and other used still lenses. But because RED is cheap, the web is full with stuff shot on the cheap with their cameras. People look at that and then look at material shot on Alexas using Master Primes and properly finished vs stuff shot on a RED with a cheap lens and cut, graded and finished by the same guy who shot it and just think RED is not as good.

I guess now that the F35 is going for such an affordable price it will start happening to it as well.

But I think a lot of RED's reputation for not being as good as Alexa is undeserved. The cameras are not as perfect as their religious followers would have you believe and I would choose a F35 or Alexa over any RED for probably any project that could fit a RED camera. Just my personal preference. But the cameras are capable of good images if the workflow and the rest is up your alley.
 
I mean, I don't see anything wrong with the RED clip the OP posted. Would it pop more with the F35? Possibly. But unless we were on that set looking at the actual conditions it would be difficult to substantiate.
But to the other point:
Put an amazing tool in the hands of a novice, you'll likely get crap, and some people will blame the tool. Put a crappy tool in the hands of a master, and you'll get work that makes novices think the tool was incredible. Really expensive tools tend to be used by those who know what they're doing, because they're the ones who can afford it, and can justify the expense. But what we're now seeing across the board is plumetting values of professional digital cinema cameras: F35, F65, Alexa, RED... and that means they'll all be used more and more by novices and apprentices. And then their work will be posted, and people will blame the tool; good or ill.
 
Paul schefz said:
i think there are better ways to try and show that dragon is not all that....
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Thanks for the very useful post of yours. I cant wait to see how you show it.


The example I posted WAS ONE OF ENDLESS EXAMPLES you can find. There is something very odd about Red. It can sting you in ways that are not easily explained. OF COURSE it can colored differently, I said that already. It has nothing to do with the fact that they still have weird color issues internally and highlight roll-off still doesn't look like film. It's 16.5 stops, right? So what? It doesn't seem to help the images.

I guess Red is grabbing at anything with their marketing because they are losing the market since the whole 4K thing is old news these days and the gimmick is uncovered, plus GH4's can look 90% the same as a Dragon to most of these lower-end camera buyers. Even their booth attendance at the NAB show was thinner than usual. I had a sales guy almost beg me to come to their sad party after the show, trying to sell the fact that some obscure "DJ" was going to be there. He said his name like I was suppose to know who he was. Then he said I could have all the beer I wanted. I said "Thanks but I've only got enough time to visit the B.Magic booth then I'm off to talk Amira with an Arri sales rep.". He just walked away.


Yeah "Vid" we have heard that broken record a billion times. Cliche is the word there.
 
VinceinLA said:
Yeah "Vid" we have heard that broken record a billion times. Cliche is the word there.
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Don't get me wrong, I'm an F35 owner and fan, and I tend to stay away from RED. What's more, I agree there's some special "mojo" to the F35 that other cameras seem to lack. But that doesn't make my point any less true, even if it bores you to hear it. It's worth noting that part of what we're discussing is utterly subjective, and not objective. Different people prefer different looks, and different artists use different palettes. Is there some ignorance in the market about what tool actually best provides which result? Certainly. And sales have favored the companies who have marketed more aggressively.

I don't really think it was completely appropriate to use this example of RED footage to make your point, since the work seems to be competent, if not to your liking. What you perceive as flaws or limits in the footage the creators may well see as choices or intended color grading. If, in fact, the camera provided the crew with the result they desired, then there's not a legitimate argument that they chose the wrong tool just because you don't enjoy it - unless you happen to be the client or another party that has influence on their livelihood.

So, I agree with your feelings on the F35, but I don't think this was either an effective or appropriate way to attempt to justify them.

Oh, and a final note, in response to your comment about RED not looking like film when it comes to highlight roll-off... so what? Years ago when video was objectively inferior to film in any number of metrics, film was the standard to compare to. It was a better viewing experience, more resolution, etc. When we got HD video cameras and ground glass adapters we added grain in post to try and emulate film to look professional. Today, with the rapid pace of digital development and a proven track record of digital cinema cameras pleasing audiences at box offices many productions have stopped trying to emulate film grain, using a super clean digital look. And audiences are accepting it. Subjectively, not everyone's happy about that, and not everyone likes it. But the masses are okay with it.

I don't see the need to bash RED to be pro-F35.
 
JMtheDP said:
I have my real name in my sig and have done for some time - I actually have been trying to get my name on REDUSER changed to my real one too for about two years but they ignore my requests every time.

Will, they're usually fairly well behaved around here, honest :)
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Good point... fixed that.
 
I'm going to try to remember a quote from our cult leader, Mac:

"red is clinically better but I prefer the F35" - I think that sums it up.
If your cult leader says something, you follow blindly. :)

But this isn't really about red bashing per say - it's just a subforum for 10 people and we need to feel that we made the "right" decision.
but part of the science is figuring out what the f35 is better to us in our eyes.

for me, it's CCD, global shutter, and true sampling of colors.

but I own 2 red ones - and I use the alexa and other sony cameras

I have my preferences, but there is no one right camera.

I was really, really disappointed in the dragon. To me, it's about 10% better looking than the mx chip - and it's noisy - noisier than the mx chip - or at least with the optical low pass filter - I was shocked by this.

I wish red the best - I wish the "Weapon" is everything we want and desire more and more, but I don't really think so.

I'm kind of tired of their "marketing over science" approach. I am tired of how their CEO bullies Geoff Boyle and Art Adams who are two major influencers on Dps in terms of unified testing of cameras and chips and sensors and their "forum" which I learned on this forum that I am not allowed to talk about - or I will get threads closed, because they are owned by the same person, who also happens to be the president of the Red company. (Uh oh - this thread is now closed!)

And well, that's my red rant. From a 2 red-camera owner. So it goes.

But anyway, who cares, I think this subforum if its banished I'll just host it on my webpage. or we can create a free forum and all 10 of us can talk on it about anything. I made one already - it isn't hard to make.

just email me at ed.david@gmail.com in case this forum is closed or I get kicked off.
 
VinceinLA said:
Thanks for the very useful post of yours. I cant wait to see how you show it.


The example I posted WAS ONE OF ENDLESS EXAMPLES you can find. There is something very odd about Red. It can sting you in ways that are not easily explained. OF COURSE it can colored differently, I said that already. It has nothing to do with the fact that they still have weird color issues internally and highlight roll-off still doesn't look like film. It's 16.5 stops, right? So what? It doesn't seem to help the images.

I guess Red is grabbing at anything with their marketing because they are losing the market since the whole 4K thing is old news these days and the gimmick is uncovered, plus GH4's can look 90% the same as a Dragon to most of these lower-end camera buyers. Even their booth attendance at the NAB show was thinner than usual. I had a sales guy almost beg me to come to their sad party after the show, trying to sell the fact that some obscure "DJ" was going to be there. He said his name like I was suppose to know who he was. Then he said I could have all the beer I wanted. I said "Thanks but I've only got enough time to visit the B.Magic booth then I'm off to talk Amira with an Arri sales rep.". He just walked away.


Yeah "Vid" we have heard that broken record a billion times. Cliche is the word there.
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so i guess i did not bash red enough for you? funny, i got banned from reduser for MUCH MUCH less:)
like i said i sold my epic when dragon did not come close to what it was promised to be....
but i honestly don't think this necessarily shows how BAD dragon really is...because it of course isn't...it is not a terrible, terrible camera, iw ould say that if you know how to use it and deal with certain situations it is quite capable...are there other, better, better for the job, more capable cameras out there? yes...and some might be cheaper as well....none are perfect IMO...
but back to this trailer: i honestly don't think it looks bad at all...please don't get me started about the subject or art direction of the thing, but i really don't have a problem how it was shot....grading is always a personal thing and again, i don't think it is bad...probably a choice they made....
in general i really don't care much about this either way...i only jumped in because i think the problem with dragon is more what it was supposed to be and all the hype...and the general red fanboy craziness of course only makes that worse...but that does not mean that crazy red hating is any better....
and i have seen stuff shot on dragon by guys who probably had never shot red before and it shows...and there is plenty of epic shot stuff out there that looks beautiful...
 
for the record I loved the look of Winter's Bone - Red One MX, district 9 - red one mx and Age of Adeline (red dragon) and Elysium (red epic I think) - I think with a good colorist red looks very lovely and realistic. not the best in saturation. but overall it has meat in the image. I also love the look of better call saul
 
William_Robinette said:
Here is the thread where one of the crew originally posted the link to the piece.

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?131687-Documentary-Shot-on-DRAGON-and-Anamorphics!!!

If you're going to come in and take a s*%t on someone's floor at least have the decency to look them in the face when you do it.

Keep it classy DVXuser!
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The guy who has s*%t on his floor smeared s*%t on men (and woman) minding their own business. I'd say that warrants a bit of scorn. Did you read that Vimeo description? My objection wasn't faith based, but based on his moral judgement.

Fair enough though to suggest people "look them in the face" so I did that on the Vimeo page.
 
StMad said:
The guy who has s*%t on his floor smeared s*%t on men (and woman) minding their own business. I'd say that warrants a bit of scorn. Did you read that Vimeo description? My objection wasn't faith based, but based on his moral judgement.

Fair enough though to suggest people "look them in the face" so I did that on the Vimeo page.
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I think this commentary is out of line for dvxuser. Isn't the rule here to not get into politics or religion? Certainly, you're welcome to find personal objection with the material linked by the OP, or to even take issue with it's creators - on a personal level. But that doesn't mean this is the right place to discuss those disagreements. And certainly, those opinions have absolutely nothing to do with the particular camera abilities and preference conversation that the link was provided for.

Way out of line dude.
 
Calm down StMad, it's only a video.

Perhaps take the time to spare a thought for all the people who were made to shoot RED (or any camera for that matter) who didn't want to?
 
I think all f35 f65 and arri users need to thank red for lowering the cost of digital cinema gear so so low. They started the trend and why i bought a f35 for like 10 grand. Thank you red. Thank you.
 
eddavid said:
I think all f35 f65 and arri users need to thank red for lowering the cost of digital cinema gear so so low. They started the trend and why i bought a f35 for like 10 grand. Thank you red. Thank you.
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Interestingly , I was thinking that RED are certainly no longer the "low budget saviour" they once were. Scarlet isn't a thing anymore (or for much longer), and the basic RED packages are as pricey as an Amira, if not more so. Perhaps that is one thing keeping Alexa values up. (That and the blue logo)
 
I have to agree. My first RED camera set me back around $30k. I loved it. It's a great camera. Fact is, I have gotten out of the RED race. They are great, but still extremely expensive. I think we have finally crossed the threshold of quality across platforms. I believe almost any modern camera can look fantastic in the right hands.

We all nitpick cameras to death on here. Fact is, if you are a skilled DP, we could put almost any new camera in your hands and produce a great image.

I love RED, totally respect them, and follow everything they do. I no longer own a RED cam and look forward to less expensiv cameras from othe companies that can also produce fantastic images. I think my next came will be a c300 markII. Either that, or just hang on to the c100 for a few more years and let tech evolve a bit more and watch prices drop. Either way, my clients are happy. I'm more interested in all of the other production elements. The camera I currently use does an adequate job and shines when everything else is properly in place.
 
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