Posted signs

F

fadedjosh

Well-known member
I have a question.

If I where to post a sign say "This event is being filmed, if you do not wish to be on camera please vacate the premises" or something of that sort. Would I also need to have people sign a waiver release form? The situation is we are having an event at a club/venue and are going to be using to be the fooage for a documentary. Also the flyers that where distributed over 2 months ago indicated that this event was going to be filmed.

I assume a sign is enough notice, its like a no trespassing sign in my opinion. Just dont know how it applies to the film world. haha thanks for all input.
 
it's enough. i do shoots for all the major studios and this is exactly what we do when shooting in public. we also make sure to shoot some video of all the posted signs and their surrounding area in an unbroken shot so that their visibility is documented.
 
No offense to Zak (or anybody else), but I wouldn't take any legal advice from anyone on a public forum. How does a sign protect you against lawsuits from people who (a) can't read, (b) don't speak/read English, or (c) simply don't see the sign? How does it protect you from the irate parents of minors who happened to be in the field of view of your camera?

Regardless of what major studios may do or not do, I would consult a qualified attorney on this or any other legal matter. It's your butt on the line, not anybody else's.

Good luck!
 
Zak Forsman said:
they have. and so have I. still, sorting this out with an entertainment attorney of your own is good advice.
Click to expand...

Again, meaning no disrespect at all, I'm just curious -- if, say, an illiterate person saw themselves in one of your videos/films and sued, what would a successful defense be?

Seems very risky to me. But maybe I'm missing something.
 
ask your attorney. we usually blur faces of the most prominent faces because prominence within the frame, the percentage of the screen they occupy and duration of screen time have great relevance here. the studios' legal departments usually guide me toward meeting the requirements in any given situation... telling me what to blur, what just plain can't be shown, etc. the studios' legal depts are very conservative. one thing I forgot to add, fadedjosh should also get a permit to shoot from his local film office. they have requirements to meet, like posting signs.
 
chapelgrovefilms said:
....but I wouldn't take any legal advice from anyone on a public forum.
...
Click to expand...

Makes me laugh cause that it is a form legal advice. :Drogar-BigGrin(DBG)



chapelgrovefilms said:
...

How does a sign protect you against lawsuits from people who (a) can't read, (b) don't speak/read English, or (c) simply don't see the sign? How does it protect you from the irate parents of minors who happened to be in the field of view of your camera?

...
Click to expand...

These are great questions! I will answer them in my response to fadedjosh.



chapelgrovefilms said:
...
I would consult a qualified attorney on this or any other legal matter. It's your butt on the line, not anybody else's.
...
Click to expand...

Actually that is very wastefully and unprofessional to a degree. You do not need to go to an attorney and have them give you private law lessons for $200+ an hour.

It is much much more efficient and beneficial to make yourself familiar with the law and the legal issues you face as a filmmaker and THEN when you have specific questions and needs for LEGAL ADVICE seek the guidance and opinion of qualified legal council.

This is a win win.


And, for the record your questions are very very very good and show great insight! I seriously think your intellect, skepticism, and passion would make you a great entertainment attorney. No Joke!
 
fadedjosh said:
I have a question.

If I where to post a sign say "This event is being filmed, if you do not wish to be on camera please vacate the premises" or something of that sort. Would I also need to have people sign a waiver release form? The situation is we are having an event at a club/venue and are going to be using to be the fooage for a documentary. Also the flyers that where distributed over 2 months ago indicated that this event was going to be filmed.

I assume a sign is enough notice, its like a no trespassing sign in my opinion. Just dont know how it applies to the film world. haha thanks for all input.
Click to expand...


DISCLAIMER:

Legal Information Is Not Legal Advice

This thread's sole purpose it to discuss information and experiences in regards to privacy law and clearance and is for informal purposes only and is no way, shape, form, or fashion intended to give legal advice. No information contained herein should be considered legal advice under any circumstances.

"Legal information" is not the same as "legal advice" -- the application of law to an individual's specific circumstances. If you have the need for legal advice it is recommend you consult a duly qualified attorney if you want professional assurance that any information contained herein, and your interpretation of it, is appropriate to your particular situation.




You are asking about what is known as a "Notice Release".


Although it is not as effective as a signed release it may afford you some protection.

A copy of the Notice Release should be posted outside the entrances to your location and be detailed as to what you are doing and what they are consenting to.

Make your release as broad and detailed as possible.


Just as Zak has said, best practice is to get uncut footage of the Notice Releases and of folks reading them.

I always use brightly colored paper and big print. The brighter the better and the bigger the sign and print the better.



As chapel has asked, what about minors, the blind, those who do not read or understand English, and generally anyone who doesn't have the capacity to contract.

These people are a protected class but they are also out in public and there is a very very limited right to privacy in public.

The biggest limitations are if you are shooting a commercial. Here you would most definitely want to get signed written releases from everyone if possible and most definitely anyone who would be recognized by a reasonable person and especially from the guardians of those who are a protected class.


If you are doing a narrative... you will still want to get written releases from anyone who would be recognized by a reasonable person. Again the releases for those in the protected classes must come from their guardians. A good approach here would be to use the Notice Release as well.


If you are doing a documentary (A type of NEWS) you have much more leeway. Here though, just for piece of mind and to help with clearance in case you decide to commercially distribute and need to secure E&O, I would at least use the Notice Release and when possible a written release for those prominently featured.




Here are a couple great resources that can be used as a primer for your rights and responsibilities as a filmaker:

[SIZE=-1]The Pocket Lawyer for Filmmakers: A Legal Toolkit for Independent Producers: Books: Thomas A. Crowell by Thomas A. Crowell.

[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]Clearance and Copyright: Everything the Independent Filmmaker Needs to Know: Books: Michael C. Donaldson by Michael C. Donaldson.


Best of luck and let us know how things go!
[/SIZE]
 
Last edited:
If you consider the cost of $200 to talk with a lawyer and make sure you don't lose everything you own in a lawsuit a waste -- well, that's your call. For me, protecting my income, my home, my family and my livelihood is worth the investment.

People go to law school for a reason. Do you want to learn to be a lawyer? Or do you want to learn to be a filmmaker?

I don't want to learn cinematography, so I hire a qualified cinematographer. I don't want to learn to be a sound expert, so I hire a sound expert. Same with lighting, and lots of other skilled jobs. Why? Because I want the best, most talented, most experienced person I can AFFORD for every job.

Legal issues are no different -- in fact, if anything they are MORE serious. If my camera guy or lighting guy screws up, he or she maybe ruins my movie. If I screw up on the legal end because I took the cheap way out, I can lose everything I own and future earnings as well.

Don't cheap out. Be safe. Read the books if you want -- it certainly can't hurt. But talk to a professional before you risk everything. It just makes sense.
 
chapelgrovefilms said:
If you consider the cost of $200 to talk with a lawyer and make sure you don't lose everything you own in a lawsuit a waste -- well, that's your call. For me, protecting my income, my home, my family and my livelihood is worth the investment.

....
Click to expand...

Whooooaaaa Nelly!

Read the post carefully my friend!

ESTEBEVERDE said:
...

Actually that is very wastefully and unprofessional to a degree. You do not need to go to an attorney and have them give you private law lessons for $200+ an hour.

It is much much more efficient and beneficial to make yourself familiar with the law and the legal issues you face as a filmmaker and THEN when you have specific questions and needs for LEGAL ADVICE seek the guidance and opinion of qualified legal council.

This is a win win.

....
Click to expand...

Perhaps you just glossed over it but clearly clearly clearly I said that LAW LESSONS AT 200+ AN HOUR ARE A POOR WASTE OF RESOURCES!

I said research and learn the law THEN go to your attorney with very specific questions. If you do not understand the law you will not understand what questions to even ask and what pitfalls to understand.

It is a cute tactic but to obfuscate and pretend that I said something I didn''t and then to go further and say that legal advice will only be $200 is a joke in itself. It's beyond the pale.


chapelgrovefilms said:
...
People go to law school for a reason. Do you want to learn to be a lawyer? Or do you want to learn to be a filmmaker?
....
Click to expand...

You are so very very presumptuous on both counts! :happy:

It's sweet but revealing.


chapelgrovefilms said:
...
Legal issues are no different -- in fact, if anything they are MORE serious. If my camera guy or lighting guy screws up, he or she maybe ruins my movie. If I screw up on the legal end because I took the cheap way out, I can lose everything I own and future earnings as well.
....
Click to expand...

It's not quite how it works but I understand your phobias of litigation and legal confrontation. Fair enough.


chapelgrovefilms said:
...
Don't cheap out. Be safe. Read the books if you want -- it certainly can't hurt. But talk to a professional before you risk everything. It just makes sense.
Click to expand...

Now see, you get my point exactly!

Read and learn and then seek additional advice. Not advice on every single thing. You have to learn the rules and regulations of the film making road.


I love you to death chapel... and I really mean that. I do appreciate your apprehension and there must be some serious back story but the truth is if you engage in any activity you should understand the pertinent law quite well even as a laymen.

The reason I say: Seek "duly qualified" legal council is just because someone is a lawyer doesn't mean they know squat about Copyright Law or even Intellectual Property Right Law in general.

If you want the very very best and want to minimize your legal exposure to the minimum.

Learn and understand the pertinent law

and then when necessary

Consult with duly qualified legal council (This means a highly accomplished specialist)




I will leave you with a P.S. to this.

chapelgrovefilms said:
...
People go to law school for a reason. Do you want to learn to be a lawyer? Or do you want to learn to be a filmmaker?
....
Click to expand...

I won't out anyone but I know of three IP lawyers who frequent this forum all graduates of Ivy League Law Schools all working for the biggest IP Law Firms in the biz.

Interestingly enough:

All have also made independent films and 1 has worked on two films that have made it to wide distribution on the big shinny silver screen!

So just be careful not to be to presumptuous and assume to much! :beer:


The thread is now completely yours!
 
I did miss that point in your original post, so calm down. I wasn't trying to 'gloss over' anything or claim you said something that you didn't. Not intentionally. I stand corrected on that. So a little less 'love', please.

Also, I wasn't being presumptious or assuming -- if people choose to hide their legal credentials, then they should expect their advice to be taken with a grain of salt. Personally, I'd still have a hard time taking legal advice from someone on a forum like this, even if they stated their credentials -- unless I had a good way of independently verifying those credentials and the person I'm 'talking' to. Anybody can be anybody here.

Yes, you can familiarize yourself with the laws and then seek qualified legal counsel. OR you can just seek out the qualified legal counsel and let him or her guide you. It's sort of like going to the doctor -- I don't generally try to self-diagnose my symptoms and then go to a doctor. I just go to the doctor. If what he says doesn't seem to make sense, or his treatment isn't working for me, then I'll research things further. But he knows a LOT more than I do about this stuff. And frankly, I've got enough I NEED to learn and know, without adding to it.

Actually, a little over a year ago I DID try to self-diagnose. I was convinced the lump on my neck was just some sort of swelling -- maybe a blocked lymph node -- and it would go away. By the time I finally went to the doctor, it took a LOT to get rid of the cancer.

Scared of litigation?? Darn right I am! Any rational person with something to lose should have a healthy dose of respect for the concept of being sued. Best case scenario is you win the suit -- which still costs you a chunk of money for your attorney fees. Worst case -- you lose, which means you risk losing everything you have. I'm glad you can laugh in the face of that kind of danger, but I prefer to err on the side of caution. An ounce of prevention, and all that... Better safe than sorry.

But hey -- that's just me. Everyone can do whatever they want. I don't know why you get SO upset when someone says "Just talk to a lawyer." I hope the original poster -- and anyone else who reads this -- will just weigh everything we've ALL had to say on the subject, and then make the decision that's right for him or her.
 
chapelgrovefilms said:
I did miss that point in your original post, so calm down. I wasn't trying to 'gloss over' anything or claim you said something that you didn't. Not intentionally. I stand corrected on that. So a little less 'love', please.

Also, I wasn't being presumptious or assuming -- if people choose to hide their legal credentials, then they should expect their advice to be taken with a grain of salt. Personally, I'd still have a hard time taking legal advice from someone on a forum like this, even if they stated their credentials -- unless I had a good way of independently verifying those credentials and the person I'm 'talking' to. Anybody can be anybody here.

Yes, you can familiarize yourself with the laws and then seek qualified legal counsel. OR you can just seek out the qualified legal counsel and let him or her guide you. It's sort of like going to the doctor -- I don't generally try to self-diagnose my symptoms and then go to a doctor. I just go to the doctor. If what he says doesn't seem to make sense, or his treatment isn't working for me, then I'll research things further. But he knows a LOT more than I do about this stuff. And frankly, I've got enough I NEED to learn and know, without adding to it.

Actually, a little over a year ago I DID try to self-diagnose. I was convinced the lump on my neck was just some sort of swelling -- maybe a blocked lymph node -- and it would go away. By the time I finally went to the doctor, it took a LOT to get rid of the cancer.

Scared of litigation?? Darn right I am! Any rational person with something to lose should have a healthy dose of respect for the concept of being sued. Best case scenario is you win the suit -- which still costs you a chunk of money for your attorney fees. Worst case -- you lose, which means you risk losing everything you have. I'm glad you can laugh in the face of that kind of danger, but I prefer to err on the side of caution. An ounce of prevention, and all that... Better safe than sorry.

But hey -- that's just me. Everyone can do whatever they want. I don't know why you get SO upset when someone says "Just talk to a lawyer." I hope the original poster -- and anyone else who reads this -- will just weigh everything we've ALL had to say on the subject, and then make the decision that's right for him or her.
Click to expand...

All good points!

I guess the only thing I would add is that I think we should know and be responsible for our actions when it comes to film making.

This gives us the greatest latitude and understanding of our rights and responsibilities.

There is nothing wrong with getting a second or even third or fourth legal opinion... and as you have said before in other threads... it comes down to being able to get E&O insurance.

You can bet that the insurers go well beyond basic scrutiny and general probably with what the law will allow in protecting their money. They are much more conservative in their risk assessments as they want to take premiums any chance they can get but only if they have a small risk of paying out.


The reason I am so passionate about The First Amendment (perhaps pushy in the eyes of some) is because it is the single most important right we have. It really is the foundation of a free and democratic society.

I truly love my country warts and all and want it to remain a place where our individual freedoms and rights are protected and allowed to flourish.


As to giving you so much "love"... well I think you are a very sincere, intelligent, and equally passionate person and I am glad you were not taken by cancer and hope you are around for a very very long time to share your opinions, insights, and experience with us all!

Even and maybe most especially if we disagree.

I am always looking to learn something new from someone who knows better than me! :thumbsup:
 
Incidentally, I guess the thing that bothers me about suggesting the OP read books on the legal aspects is that I'm assuming the OP is a human being. As humans, we tend to dig in the book until we find something that appears to support what we WANT the truth to be, and then we stop looking. And that gets us into all kinds of trouble.

A good lawyer -- a well qualified lawyer -- isn't going to be trying to tell him what he wants to hear. He's going to be trying to keep the guy out of trouble. That's his job.

So reading up on the subject in preparation for seeing a lawyer is a great idea. Reading in hopes you can find your own answers and avoid consulting a lawyer -- that, to me, is risky.

I actually think we agree more than disagree here, ESTEBEVERDE.
 
ESTEBEVERDE said:
All good points!

I guess the only thing I would add is that I think we should know and be responsible for our actions when it comes to film making.

This gives us the greatest latitude and understanding of our rights and responsibilities.

There is nothing wrong with getting a second or even third or fourth legal opinion... and as you have said before in other threads... it comes down to being able to get E&O insurance.

You can bet that the insurers go well beyond what the law will allow in protecting their money.

They want to take premiums any chance they can get but only if they have a small risk of paying out.


The reason I am so passionate about The First Amendment (perhaps pushy in the eyes of some) is because it is the single most important right we have. It really is the foundation of a free and democratic society.

I truly love my country warts and all and want it to remain a place where our individual freedoms and rights are protected and allowed to flourish.


As to giving you so much "love"... well I think you are a very sincere, intelligent, and equally passionate person and I am glad you were not taken by cancer and hope you are around for a very very long time to share your opinions, insights, and experience with us all!

Even and maybe most especially if we disagree.

I am always looking to learn something new from someone who knows better than me! :thumbsup:
Click to expand...


I ABSOLUTELY AGREE about the First Amendment. I WISH it was followed to the letter, especially with regards to freedom of religion. "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, nor the free exercise thereof." And yet we have laws restricting the free exercise of religion, don't we? And why? Because the Supreme Court said it was alright to make those restrictive laws.

Anyway, that's a whole 'nuther can of worms, and one we're really not allowed to open up on this forum -- which is fine, and I completely respect that. But yes, Estebeverde -- we agree! :thumbsup:
 
chapelgrovefilms said:
Incidentally, I guess the thing that bothers me about suggesting the OP read books on the legal aspects is that I'm assuming the OP is a human being. As humans, we tend to dig in the book until we find something that appears to support what we WANT the truth to be, and then we stop looking. And that gets us into all kinds of trouble.

A good lawyer -- a well qualified lawyer -- isn't going to be trying to tell him what he wants to hear. He's going to be trying to keep the guy out of trouble. That's his job.

So reading up on the subject in preparation for seeing a lawyer is a great idea. Reading in hopes you can find your own answers and avoid consulting a lawyer -- that, to me, is risky.

I actually think we agree more than disagree here, ESTEBEVERDE.
Click to expand...

Very True!

And I will even concede and go further in that the OP has a responsibility to seek the council of his school's legal department and that it is up to them what level of risk they will take.

It might be the case that they have licensee in place, it might be the case they think the use if Fair Use and give him the green light, it might be the case that they think the use is Fair but don't want the risk or it might be as it appears and they tell the op no go it is infringement.

In his case in particular, he definitely needs to avail himself of his schools attorneys. :thumbsup:
 
ESTEBEVERDE said:
Very True!

And I will even concede and go further in that the OP has a responsibility to seek the council of his school's legal department and that it is up to them what level of risk they will take.

It might be the case that they have licensee in place, it might be the case they think the use if Fair Use and give him the green light, it might be the case that they think the use is Fair but don't want the risk or it might be as it appears and they tell the op no go it is infringement.

In his case in particular, he definitely needs to avail himself of his schools attorneys. :thumbsup:
Click to expand...

Excellent advice! Wish I'd thought of that. Nice job!
 
chapelgrovefilms said:
I ABSOLUTELY AGREE about the First Amendment. I WISH it was followed to the letter, especially with regards to freedom of religion. "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, nor the free exercise thereof." And yet we have laws restricting the free exercise of religion, don't we? And why? Because the Supreme Court said it was alright to make those restrictive laws.

Anyway, that's a whole 'nuther can of worms, and one we're really not allowed to open up on this forum -- which is fine, and I completely respect that. But yes, Estebeverde -- we agree! :thumbsup:
Click to expand...


I hear ya... loud and clear David !
 
chapelgrovefilms said:
Excellent advice! Wish I'd thought of that. Nice job!
Click to expand...

And... if it and independent project he should still seek legal council from a duly qualified IP attorney.

Just in case it's not a student project. :Drogar-BigGrin(DBG)


I don't know why I am thinking it is but I could be tooootaly off on that.


Oh well, such is life!


I am off to bed so I don't get too deep in "deliriously tired" posting.


Have a good night David!

All the Best to you!
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top