Other: Poll, price, money and your hourly rate

Poll, price, money and your hourly rate

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Publimix

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This isn't a threat about sony, though I see a lot of professionals here and thats what my question is about
I am busy finishing a translation of a popular book in the Netherlands.
This book contains methods to calculate your hourly rate and different ways to calculate prices. It also contains different pricing strategies and tips and tricks for making business propositions and offers.
And it contains 150 hour-rates of different freelance job titles, with minimum, average and high hourly rates.

As I am based in the Netherlands I know the market here. I can imagine this title is also interesting in America and England.
The German version is ready. This book is often used by freelancers to calculate their hour-rate. Also it is used during price negotiations. (Wave with the book, to show the rates asked are common).
I really like to know if you would be interested so I can have it translated.
 
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Hi Nirv,
Thanks, that is good to know, in the Netherlands it is forbidden for organisations to give advice-rates. So this book is handy here and not in England.
 
I think it could be useful to beginners but it can vary from country to country and they different fields
For example copyright, data protection and Busines laws.
Local laws, customs and practices can vary wildly. You might want to collaborate on a series of books in the same format with each taylored to a different country.
 
jagraphics said:
I think it could be useful to beginners but it can vary from country to country and they different fields
For example copyright, data protection and Busines laws.
Local laws, customs and practices can vary wildly. You might want to collaborate on a series of books in the same format with each taylored to a different country.
Click to expand...


You are right,
The book I publish is for starters, they often don't know what to ask. And asking to much is as bad as asking to little for their work. But I am also looking for a publisher to collaborate with.
 
i dont really know anyone that does hourly rates in our field except for post work; most go by half day or full day rate (based on a 5-hour or 10-hour day, respectively), and some dont even do the half day. dont know all the reasons but one is that video/film productions tend to be planned quite a bit in advance and dont pop up spontaneously. we're not like plumbers where you can probably fit multiple jobs into one day, so we generally assume that if you do one job a day, even if its only two hours, its the only thing youre going to be able to do that day, so you bill for at least five hours if not ten.
 
I know personally, I don't charge an hourly (except on small edits/tweaks) but rather a day and (very rarely) a half day. I know that most of my colleagues do the same.

I can also say, from experience, that traveling around the US hiring crews there are pretty stark differences among rates, at least until you hit a certain level of quality and experience, and then everything seems to stabilize. The less experienced freelancers would likely find that their rates are very different depending on the state and media market.
 
I think a book on “how we do it in the Netherlands” would have limited prospects in the US, unless it was heavily rewritten for the US market. I would be very surprised if a publisher wanted to go with this: where’s the profit? I think an e-book would be your best bet, and a lot would depend on early reviewers. Your primary market would be wannabe videographers/filmmakers. “I just bought a Red Raven (Canon DSLR, etc.) and now I want to make a lot of money. Should I start with Craigslist?"
 
You know, I had typed out a few paragraphs about how this could be useful if there if the info was broken down by qualifiers (scripted, reality, corporate, wedding), but then you add experience and region and it just gets too messy.

I'm not sure how this could be really helpful. The best advice/info I've ever gotten about rates is having frank and relatively confidential talks with my friends in the business. For instance, about a year ago I asked a good friend of mine who's had a very similar career path and is working roughly with the same type of clients about what he's getting as a day rate, and what the low rate is where he draws the line. Stuff like that.

If you ask local freelancers in your area, and not load the q with expectations, you can get answers. One problem with that is if you're inexperienced and asking experienced folks, the rates they say may not/probably won't apply to you unless they are specifically taking into acct your experience and segment.

These are the mysteries of the business that only come with time and experience. Just like your reel!
 
Hi Nate,
The book contains 5 method to calculate your rate, that includes regio and experience, and the rates mentioned in the book are low-medium and high. So these are the market prices.
 
Not only will this guide need to be different per country it will also need to be updated every few years. Not only due to inflation (or deflation) but the change in each section of the market for supply and demand. It could end up as a life's work if you do it seriously.

BTW I have translators and editors for several languages, English, American, French, German and a few other languages.
 
just to chime in,

not only would it vary by experience and region, but desperation and market saturation too. I'm thinking the old RED camera saturation situation, and possibly even which ever way the wind is blowing that day. Throw some luck in there too. :happy:

Best rate to charge is the most you absolutely can.
 
Wow Dennis, you're using Demand-based pricing for video work? Are you taking a page from Uber's playbook? Not exactly a great way to build customer loyalty and long-term relationships. My day-rates are so firm that I am one of the very, very few people that actually posts them on my freelance website. I'm not going to work for less than that, I'm not going charge someone more than that even if I can, so why not post the rates? It saves a lot of wasted time on the phone discussing jobs that ultimately people can't afford. If someone is going to choke on the price, I hope they do their choking before they call. :-) If someone calls or emails me, I assume they are already fully aware of my rates and are a serious player.
 
Now we see the problem..... Different answers from UK, Canada, USA. Given the size of the USA I expect there will be large differences across the US anyway,
 
Right Doug, so from your post I gather you are not open to negotiation on daily rates. That is a great place to be in if you can stick to your guns with your clients and never budge on your standard daily rates. I think other people here have the problem of probably trying to establish a rate, and secondly actually fight clients just to get anything close to it. Hence why Publimix probably started this thread, and hence my comment about charging as much as you can - I meant charging as close to a properly established rate as you can but you need to know what that rate is to begin with of course.

Here in the Toronto area the approximate freelance daily rate is $2000 a day for a DOP with a designation equivalent to ASC, and who's maybe been shooting some car, big products, or other commercial brand TV spots and commercials. That would probably include a camera package, and from there lights, other camera support equipment is negotiable or rented separate and the client picks up the tab for them. But that rate can be way more, it can be way less. It all really varies.

If you work in the local union it's a whole other ball game. DOP's get around $100/hour but they also have proper camera crews, lighting and electrical crews and don't bring their own equipment to set.. etc.. this would be for higher end commercial work, or feature films shot in Toronto that are Canadian productions or U.S productions looking to take advantage of tax credits and our weak dollar which it usually is.

But back to me (and my reality at least), when my client has their client which can be anyone with any set budget for any set project, I am so far down the chain that it can easily become a subject of negotiation on price for every project and it usually is despite what price list I give out to all existing or new clients each year.

Everything is negotiable in my world, and like I said, I have to play the game of not taking a low ball counter offer when I feel that I might be able to get more.

Charge as much as you can, never be that "free" or cheap DOP… never.
 
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Dennis, thanks for clarification. However, I would still suggest to people just getting started that they establish a fair rate for their level of experience, equipment, etc. and hold to it. It's been my experience that once you work for less than the day-rate you have established, you will never get more from that client. And charging more when you can get away with it, for example when someone is in a jam, doesn't build loyalty. This business is all about repeat business. You have to treat every client as if you will have a close relationship with them for a decade, even if they are flying in from the other side of the world for a quick interview at the last minute. You don't know who they know, who they might recommend you to, how often they will return etc. The golden rule certainly applies.

I have always stuck to my day-rate and it never varies from day to day or client to client, but I must say that I work on a day-hire basis very seldom anymore. My preference is to write/shoot/edit/direct projects on a turn-key basis for a flat fee. And on that type of work, I do charge as much as I can get the client to approve.
 
No one tells me what to charge, I am quite happy to negotiate prices especially if I find the project interesting or by taking a job could get us exposure in a different market.

I never get into a race to the bottom, I am confident in our ability to produce high quality work that's the message I leave the client with at the end of the phonecall. If they want a cheaper sh1ttier product that's their prerogative.

I see a lot of newbs competing on price alone and undercutting their competitors thinking they're winning when they're not, they're just sh1tting in their nest. If you depress the market so low the market becomes non-viable and no one wins.
 
Your work, your experience and your gear has to have a base value. If you do a job for 10% of your proper rate, then you have announced that the '10% rate' is actually not only YOUR going rate, but the rate the Producer should expect to try and pay other people down the line as well.

Person A can never be allowed to think that the net cost for XYZ gear and XYZ levels of production values is zero or may as well be zero. Be professional, act like a professional and make it obvious to the production why hiring a professional for a professional's rate is much better for their end result but will likely save them money down the line by having stuff done properly in the first place.

The two golden rules are 1) Never work on a promise and 2) Always be recompensed. It doesn't have to be financially, but you need to get a definite something out of a project. I've done stuff with models before because I wanted more hot people in one of my showreels for example and so I worked for free but charged for my equipment.



Working for exposure is pointless because these

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Are not legal tender.
 
Ben Scott said:
Working for exposure is pointless because these

9upTyvUl.png


Are not legal tender.
Click to expand...

Doing work for exposure has lead me in to many new fields from nuclear science to video production to VFX, then motion graphics and now real time generative graphics and video installations. So my whole career would seem to be pointless given your advice...
 
Tough topic and best of luck going forward. Sorry to be blunt but I can not stand this internet idea of telling beginners what to charge. Why would somebody with zero experience be charging a professional rate? These calculators that say "put in the number of days you want to work and you can figure out how much to make per day..." Well I want to work one day a week so I need to charge about $2,000 a day for every job:)

Tell people to have integrity and respect for their clients' time and money first. Charge according to your delivered capabilities. One is not owed anything in the marketplace. Create a great product or skillset and the value will be there.
 
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