POLL: Closed Loop or Deliver Footage?
- Thread starter quicklad
- Start date
cheezweezl
Veteran
i agree. what is all this whining about? p2 is so much more solid and easier to deal with than tape.
Deaniweenie
Active member
I have been waiting for the tapeless revolution to come along and now it's here it doesn't disappoint. I find the workflow for me, when I am doing the editing unbelievably simple. I have had no problems with the P2 format even when editing 1080 50i on my iMac. My first project was over 700GB in size and was mostly chroma keyed and went like a dream.
OK. Here's the rub. It's fine if I am editing the footage but if I go on a shoot and the client intends to take the footage away it's not that simple.
I have to have some way of offloading the cards. I could do it straight from the camera to a computer but that ties up the camera for ages. I could have a computer (Laptop) to download the cards but in a run and gun situation that could be tricky. What I normally do is take away the footage, download it to a hard drive and give it to the client. Again, that is extra work for me and inconvenient for the client.
I am continually working on new ideas for making the 'hand over' process easier but there are still some snags with working with tapeless systems.
Don't get me wrong, I thing the format and system is fantastic and certainly wouldn't go back to working on tape, not for my projects anyway. I do occasionally have to film using tape but not that that often these days.
Tapeless is here and it's a revolution. However, it's still in it's infancy and has toothing issues which will take a while to resolve.
I'm not looking back though!
Weenie
OK. Here's the rub. It's fine if I am editing the footage but if I go on a shoot and the client intends to take the footage away it's not that simple.
I have to have some way of offloading the cards. I could do it straight from the camera to a computer but that ties up the camera for ages. I could have a computer (Laptop) to download the cards but in a run and gun situation that could be tricky. What I normally do is take away the footage, download it to a hard drive and give it to the client. Again, that is extra work for me and inconvenient for the client.
I am continually working on new ideas for making the 'hand over' process easier but there are still some snags with working with tapeless systems.
Don't get me wrong, I thing the format and system is fantastic and certainly wouldn't go back to working on tape, not for my projects anyway. I do occasionally have to film using tape but not that that often these days.
Tapeless is here and it's a revolution. However, it's still in it's infancy and has toothing issues which will take a while to resolve.
I'm not looking back though!
Weenie
TwistedLincoln
Veteran
Well if transfering the original footage to a client is a problem with P2, why not just buy a DVCPROHD tape deck, and record directy to tape via firewire? Sure, you wouldn't get the benefits of P2, but it doesn't sound like you need them for your purposes anyway.
Deaniweenie
Active member
Nah! I'll never go back to tape as long as tapeless continues to work for me. Not only is it a breeze to work with, it's cost effective for my business too.
I (we all) need to once-and-for-all crack the issue of handing over the footage to clients, and then P2 and tapeless in general will be just about perfect.
Weenie.
I (we all) need to once-and-for-all crack the issue of handing over the footage to clients, and then P2 and tapeless in general will be just about perfect.
Weenie.
P2 workflow is "still woefully lacking" in what regard?
We looked hard at tapeless acquisition and workflow before buying about three years ago.
We would never go back to tape.
What are you complaints and what are you lacking in workflow?
We looked hard at tapeless acquisition and workflow before buying about three years ago.
We would never go back to tape.
What are you complaints and what are you lacking in workflow?
Deaniweenie
Active member
Maybe the answer is for the client to have their own P2 cards which they bring along. Perhaps in the future P2 cards will be a fraction of todays cost and clients will have their own stock.
Weenie.
Weenie.
Deaniweenie
Active member
All technology, all gadgets, all production formats have some drawbacks and problems. People will always find issues with things that just don't quite fit in to their lives and workflows.
P2 and tapeless in general has problems just like any other technology but to say that it's "woefully lacking" is an exaggeration.
No matter what format is chosen, there will always be some issue that crops up. We just have to hope that the developers are quick to solve the issues. We as users to some extent, will always be beta testing equipment for manufacturers and we will have to find 'work arounds' and ways of fitting the new technology into our own workflows.
This is one of the reasons why we have these superb forums where we can share ideas and solutions with each other. And I'm sure some of what is said here filters back to the manufacturers and developers, influencing and improving future technology. Well, I like to think so anyway.
Weenie
P2 and tapeless in general has problems just like any other technology but to say that it's "woefully lacking" is an exaggeration.
No matter what format is chosen, there will always be some issue that crops up. We just have to hope that the developers are quick to solve the issues. We as users to some extent, will always be beta testing equipment for manufacturers and we will have to find 'work arounds' and ways of fitting the new technology into our own workflows.
This is one of the reasons why we have these superb forums where we can share ideas and solutions with each other. And I'm sure some of what is said here filters back to the manufacturers and developers, influencing and improving future technology. Well, I like to think so anyway.
Weenie
Deaniweenie
Active member
If a client hires you to film a job on your HVX and expects to take the footage away, it's up to them to make sure they have the capability to handle the footage. Surely the client would check that they can use the footage properly prior to hiring the camera op or at least prior to the shoot.
Once you hand over the footage the responsibility is on the client.
Weenie.
Once you hand over the footage the responsibility is on the client.
Weenie.
I don't edit so I always hand over the footage to a client at the end of the day. The easiest has been when the client brings their own p2 cards and takes them at the end of the shoot. Otherwise there is a digital assistant to dump to hardrives. HD decks are expensive and many clients are not interested in buying decks especially with so much tapeless buzz. I'm looking forward to the hmc 150 so I can simply hand over a low cost SDHC card at the end of the shoot.
I wasn't asking about P2 v Tape - I was asking, as P2 users, do you have to deliver footage at the end of the day to your client, which presents it's own challenges, or are you a closed loop shop - ie you shoot, import, edit etc your own stuff.
I never said anything about tape so I'm not sure why it became an issue. I also never mentioned cards or their price - so maybe you guys should simply answer the question instead of trying to guess my motivation.
As a 100% freelance camera op/DP using P2 ( going on two years) and a MacbookPro (half the price of a P2 Gear!) - I have found the workflow of getting my clients their footage to still be too slow, too error prone and still a PIA.
I am not arguing for going back to tape ( which does still have its advantages over P2) - I want Panasonic to step up and support their own system to make my life easier using their product.
Locally, I work with, and know many other DP's and ops who all use p2 and all use Macs - but Panasonic seems to act like all their P2 users are news shooters with PC's, and I don't know how many people on this board are in MY situation - thats why I asked.
I never said anything about tape so I'm not sure why it became an issue. I also never mentioned cards or their price - so maybe you guys should simply answer the question instead of trying to guess my motivation.
As a 100% freelance camera op/DP using P2 ( going on two years) and a MacbookPro (half the price of a P2 Gear!) - I have found the workflow of getting my clients their footage to still be too slow, too error prone and still a PIA.
I am not arguing for going back to tape ( which does still have its advantages over P2) - I want Panasonic to step up and support their own system to make my life easier using their product.
Locally, I work with, and know many other DP's and ops who all use p2 and all use Macs - but Panasonic seems to act like all their P2 users are news shooters with PC's, and I don't know how many people on this board are in MY situation - thats why I asked.
puredrifting
Major Contributor
I do some of both although I usually shoot a lot of interviews. So it is a breeze for me to backup to two hard drives as I shoot. If I shoot ten 1 hour interviews on a day, as soon as we are finished, I unhook the client's hard drive and hand it to them. I work in broadcast and documentaries so everyone uses either FCP or Avid so no worries about them not being able to handle P2 media.
When shooting EPK, run and gun, b-roll and BTS footage, luckily, that is always for the studios so we shoot P2, then take it back to the studio and lay it off to DBeta, HDCAM SR or D5 using my Kona 3 so that is easy as well. The studios never need to "take it with them" fortunately for me.
The other half are shows that I shoot and produce and sometimes edit. P2 works superbly for that although the long term backup to DLT is a PITA and one the shortcomings of digital shooting without tape. I store a lot of my personal stuff, demo reel stuff and some corporate client projects on redundant hard drives, which is cheap and easy but in the long run, not very reliable. I have almost 65 Terabytes of P2 footage sitting on drives here. I buy a new 500GB every week for short term editing and storage. Kind of weird to have so many drives but that is how it is. I used to have a tape vault, now I have a hard drive vault.
Dan
When shooting EPK, run and gun, b-roll and BTS footage, luckily, that is always for the studios so we shoot P2, then take it back to the studio and lay it off to DBeta, HDCAM SR or D5 using my Kona 3 so that is easy as well. The studios never need to "take it with them" fortunately for me.
The other half are shows that I shoot and produce and sometimes edit. P2 works superbly for that although the long term backup to DLT is a PITA and one the shortcomings of digital shooting without tape. I store a lot of my personal stuff, demo reel stuff and some corporate client projects on redundant hard drives, which is cheap and easy but in the long run, not very reliable. I have almost 65 Terabytes of P2 footage sitting on drives here. I buy a new 500GB every week for short term editing and storage. Kind of weird to have so many drives but that is how it is. I used to have a tape vault, now I have a hard drive vault.
Dan
My theory is simply that p2 works much better for if you are in a closed loop, and that Panasonic caters their business more toward that type of client.
Weenie- -I agreed with your first post about all technologies having problems and us being somewhat lab rats for them. I find p2's workflow woefully lacking because the fact it is still an issue after what - three years on the market - is ridiculous to me. Those issues should have been mostly solved by now.
As for your second post - about clients wanting p2 thus being responsible - I disagree. As a freelancer, thats one of those situations where even if you're right, you're wrong. I am *always* responsible for delivering to my client - thats what we get the big bucks for. In many cases - I am the reason they are even shooting p2 in the first place.
Thank you to those who actually answered!
Weenie- -I agreed with your first post about all technologies having problems and us being somewhat lab rats for them. I find p2's workflow woefully lacking because the fact it is still an issue after what - three years on the market - is ridiculous to me. Those issues should have been mostly solved by now.
As for your second post - about clients wanting p2 thus being responsible - I disagree. As a freelancer, thats one of those situations where even if you're right, you're wrong. I am *always* responsible for delivering to my client - thats what we get the big bucks for. In many cases - I am the reason they are even shooting p2 in the first place.
Thank you to those who actually answered!
puredrifting
Major Contributor
You could always just provide QuickTImes for your clients (convert the P2 to whatever kind of QT they can use?). Sure, this takes some time but could be done in an evening after the shoot. If they are on non-Avid or non-FCP systems, I think most can still use or convert QTs.
Dan
Dan
To answer the poll question: I mostly need to deliver footage to the client at the end of the day. Not a closed loop.
Maybe 90% of what I do is for clients who expect to be able to walk away with the days footage a the end each day. My clients have great respect for my talents and recommendations and will typically follow my suggestions.
Often the crew will consist of me, a sound person, and a producer/director. It is not uncommon for a job to require multiple interview and B-roll setups at multiple locations throughout the city during the day. Finding time to offload footage can be a real challenge on schedule like that. I typically don't have the luxury to go back to my studio and offload footage to a hard drive, tape or whatever, for delivery to that client the next day. I'm usually preparing for the next day's job with an entirely different client. So, in a case like that, a "data only" - tapeless workflow can be kinda hard to swallow.
I would love to here how most of you would manage a situation like that.
Someone wrote that they have clients who provide their own P2 cards and that sounds like one good solutions. Many of my tape clients depend on me to provide stock, so it's hard to expect them to invest in P2 cards. To be honest I prefer to be the responsible party. I'm just looking for the most efficient and reliable way to serve my clients. Any suggestions of how to quickly manage P2 data, by myself while on the move would be greatly appreciated.
Dafilms
Maybe 90% of what I do is for clients who expect to be able to walk away with the days footage a the end each day. My clients have great respect for my talents and recommendations and will typically follow my suggestions.
Often the crew will consist of me, a sound person, and a producer/director. It is not uncommon for a job to require multiple interview and B-roll setups at multiple locations throughout the city during the day. Finding time to offload footage can be a real challenge on schedule like that. I typically don't have the luxury to go back to my studio and offload footage to a hard drive, tape or whatever, for delivery to that client the next day. I'm usually preparing for the next day's job with an entirely different client. So, in a case like that, a "data only" - tapeless workflow can be kinda hard to swallow.
I would love to here how most of you would manage a situation like that.
Someone wrote that they have clients who provide their own P2 cards and that sounds like one good solutions. Many of my tape clients depend on me to provide stock, so it's hard to expect them to invest in P2 cards. To be honest I prefer to be the responsible party. I'm just looking for the most efficient and reliable way to serve my clients. Any suggestions of how to quickly manage P2 data, by myself while on the move would be greatly appreciated.
Dafilms