Pmw F5 & F55

Mitch Gross said:
A minor note but I'd like to point out that the Phantom 65 Gold has 12.5 micron photosites, not 5 micron. It's a REALLY big sensor. Also, note that the Phantom 65 Gold is almost seven years old and still delivers perhaps the single most gorgeous image of any digital camera currently available. A more modern version of the sensor would likely be a higher sensitivity.

But yes, this does not belittle Sony's achievement. The sensors on these two new cameras are very impressive.
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I wasn't aware that the Phantom 65 Gold used a 12.5 um pixel. You have to admire Phantom's scale, but you also realize how under-appreciated they are for their accomplishments (perhaps they should adopt Red-style marketing). But, again, its actually harder to get a global shutter on smaller photosite while achieving high image quality. So that does explain a lot. Let's keep in mind, Sony too have had global-shutter CMOS sensors for their industrial cameras for a while, and have only now been able to provide decent quality with their global-shutter CMOS sensors.
 
The new SATIS (broadcast trade show in France) opens up november 13th and there will be a Sony booth showing the F5 and the F55.

I hope that I could have some price hints there, I'll report here if I have any news.
 
S. Matthews said:
Honestly I'm going to take your word for it as at this point from my perspective I have had no problem replicating real world colours that I see with colour correction's on DSLR's and RED's alike. I have not worked with an alexa file in a while, and I have yet to play with an F65 image but I have no doubt about it's quality.

I guess what I'm getting at is at the point I am at with the content I am delivering most colour sciences have hit a point similar to audio where I can get what I want and then some. Though to be honest yes I would love to have a much easier route to get extreme range within colour's, other than creating a series of windows and correction passes. Though I have created my own "post science" (a series of nodes) that gets me close to this relatively easily.

Though this does make me wish I had access to the raw files from tests like the Zacuto one so I could test these things more accurately with the same scene set up and everything. The problem is what do you use as a control? considering what people consider to be natural colours can vary drastically as our vision does.

the reason I say it is subjective is due to the vast differences in peoples tastes in sensors and colour science. Some don't like the newest offerings, some don't like any skin tones aside from film, and some even prefer the looks of nearly decade old cameras. So I find it interesting when some choose to knock one over the other pointing out issues that are more a grading choice than a shortcoming in the colour science, though shortcomings exist most often they aren't even the issues people bring up.

sorry for the rant to condense it I guess what I'm saying is as I see it at this point the difference in colour science isn't as important as feature sets and business models, but that is just my opinion. Oh and I'm not knocking Sony's models at all in fact I applaud them, they have done a great job can't wait to see some tests of these bad boys.
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I decided to write an article about this for the AbelCine blog. There are some deeper explanations and some illustrations there than the comments I've written here. There are absolutely objective measures and it is very clear how much more information can be made available. One thing I find interesting is that Sony is happy to share information on the Color Gamut of its system but some others do not. 3rd parties have tested some manufacturer's offereings and found them wanting.

Anyway, here's a link to that article.
http://blog.abelcine.com/2012/11/01/sonys-pmw-f5-and-f55-defining-cfa/
 
Thanks for taking the time to answer my query's Mitch I appreciate it. Here I am talking nonsense while you are dealing with that ____ Sandy, I wish you all the best!
 
nkerezov said:
I'm sorry ,but most of the people here doesn't know how to even compare cameras.
For those of you who still like RED - I can only say I'm sorry! 4k, 5k ....RAW and at the end RED skin tones......
None of you RED Police ( I love that sentence) see the most important in the new F - 16bit color .
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Not sure what your rant is about but once you're shooting over 12-bit in decent color space you can do whatever you like with skin tones. I've been using the F3 for a year now and constantly backing out mid-tones from the RED channel even when shooting at 5600k...
 
starcentral said:
Not sure what your rant is about but once you're shooting over 12-bit in decent color space you can do whatever you like with skin tones. I've been using the F3 for a year now and constantly backing out mid-tones from the RED channel even when shooting at 5600k...
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I ment RED and its red skintones.
 
I saw a Curtis Clark F65 demo at Sony on a 4K projector, shot in Las Vegas and the nearby Valley of Fire. One could really see the 16bitRAW's extra layers of color blending smoothly into each other--especially in the panoramic desert shots. Really high resolution, and dynamic range, but at the same time the image had a velvety texture. Very impressive integration of many levels of R&D to achieve this look.
Think the F55 has some of the same abilities in a smaller less expensive package. Pretty killer combo. So glad the Rube Goldberg ergonomic school of DSLR/EX1+3/F3 franken rigs no longer have to be used by those fortunate enough to work with the F5 and F55 and say the Fujinon Cabrio lenses-- total game changer for hand held work.
 
jameswmulryan said:
I saw a Curtis Clark F65 demo at Sony on a 4K projector, shot in Las Vegas and the nearby Valley of Fire. One could really see the 16bitRAW's extra layers of color blending smoothly into each other--especially in the panoramic desert shots. Really high resolution, and dynamic range, but at the same time the image had a velvety texture. Very impressive integration of many levels of R&D to achieve this look.
Think the F55 has some of the same abilities in a smaller less expensive package.
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OK let's chat about this.

I also saw the Curtis Clark F65 film you saw - El Dorado (at Cinegear in the main Paramount theatre). And I saw The Arrival at several places (the other F65 film shot before that).

Yes, the daylight stuff looked AWESOME in exactly the way you describe.

But to me, the night stuff earlier on in El Dorado (in Vegas) and most of The Arrival... both looked like RED Mysterium sensor skin tones. When you're not hitting it with daylight, it's not so good and I suspect film would have looked better...

So yeah, I think we need to see some more footage before we crown F65 or F55 as the skin tone king.

Also, I really don't think it has much to do with 16bit or 12bit. Film is 99% of the time scanned to 10bit log and still has the best skin tones.

I think it's about the color filters and subsequent processing.

nkerezov said:
I'm sorry ,but most of the people here doesn't know how to even compare cameras.
For those of you who still like RED - I can only say I'm sorry! 4k, 5k ....RAW and at the end RED skin tones......
None of you RED Police ( I love that sentence) see the most important in the new F - 16bit color .
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Well... again... it's quite possible that shooting 16bit instead of 10bit log makes no difference with skin tones.

The other thing is that the F55 and F65 have very pure, wide gamut color filter arrays.

But although I understand that will allow them to accurately reproduce very saturated primaries, I am not sure what it means for subtle tones and secondaries. Being good at one does not necessarily make you good at the other.

Anyway, look forward to next year testing Dragon, F55, Alexa 4K (if I can convince anyone to lend it to me for cheap - maybe just have to do the test at the rental house!), Alexa, Canon C500, 1D C and of course good old Kodak and Fuji stock.

I'll try and organize and see if anyone else is interested in joining in when it gets closer to the time...

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com
 
starcentral said:
I have red skintones in my F3.
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Hi starcentral... I noticed that you have put your Scarlet on the market (at least, i think it was you, judging by the profile picture).

Can you give some insight into your choice? I am trying to make a similar decision. I know we all have different shooting needs, but would be interested to hear your thinking on this.
 
Color depth is very close related to the DR and the “mud-ness” (clarity) of the image. This not supposed to be mistaken with resolution!
 
Hey guys, can we specualte any further pricing on F55?

Alister has been talking about $8k EVF'S, and if course some more down in $2k range.
 
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