Pmw F5 & F55

avro said:
just go to red website(15,000)
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depends what he needs...

Danny1280 said:
So how much for a fully-kitted scarlet?
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You will need the brain, side or rear SSD module, AC power, AL lens mount, and I suggest the 5" LCD touch screen.

That will run you:
$7950, + $1500 or $1200, + $150, $800, $1600.
= $12,000 total (but that's no batteries just AC power - you might want to look into v-lock battery system)

LeavingTheCandy said:
If Sony undercuts Red's pricing, I'll be SHOCKED!
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Sony will go with whatever plan they originally had. Die with honor you know?
 
LeavingTheCandy said:
If Sony undercuts Red's pricing, I'll be SHOCKED!
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I would not be surprised if the final cost of a fully configured F55 will be completive with a fully configured RED EPIC and less than a fully configured RED EPIC with the new dragon sensor.
 
Yak said:
I would not be surprised if the final cost of a fully configured F55 will be completive with a fully configured RED EPIC and less than a fully configured RED EPIC with the new dragon sensor.
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I doubt that. Jannard knows something in order to come up with that pricing, and let's just say he likes the "dragon slaying" business...

EPIC $19k (+ ~~$4k to get it going)

C500 $25k + ~$9k ext raw recorder

F5 ~$15k + ~$5-9k ext raw recorder

F55 ~$20k + ~$5-9k ext raw recorder

Canon 1DC $15k (DOA?)

Besides Sony's AIM is to appeal to both BROADCAST and CINEMA markets. RED originated to replace 35mm film and not sure if they want to get into broadcast or just sit around and protect their 35mm film market.
 
starcentral said:
depends what he needs...



You will need the brain, side or rear SSD module, AC power, AL lens mount, and I suggest the 5" LCD touch screen.

That will run you:
$7950, + $1500 or $1200, + $150, $800, $1600.
= $12,000 total (but that's no batteries just AC power - you might want to look into v-lock battery system)



Sony will go with whatever plan they originally had. Die with honor you know?
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can cut it even more, drop the touch, pick up a cheap hdmi monitor for a few hundred bucks and add a side handle allows for great control optional power and reduced power as the camera is no longer powering a monitor. Plus the AC power adapter is included in the brain purchase. and two 48 gig SSD's, or one, SSD reader, and a power pack for any non studio shooting. Not perfect but will get you shooting off the bat and you can build from there. Doesn't sound good to you then perhaps a more complete system for a more cost effective package may make more sense.

Ah crap somehow I thought this was the red thread.... Sorry!
 
starcentral said:
I doubt that. Jannard knows something in order to come up with that pricing, and let's just say he likes the "dragon slaying" business...

EPIC $19k (+ ~~$4k to get it going)

C500 $25k + ~$9k ext raw recorder

F5 ~$15k + ~$5-9k ext raw recorder

F55 ~$20k + ~$5-9k ext raw recorder

Canon 1DC $15k (DOA?)

Besides Sony's AIM is to appeal to both BROADCAST and CINEMA markets. RED originated to replace 35mm film and not sure if they want to get into broadcast or just sit around and protect their 35mm film market.
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Trying to determine this is something much more complicated than the above math.

Accessories differ greatly from company to company, and so does media cost if you are familiar with Red SSD costs. Does the F55 EVF sell separately? Is it included? Red needs a PL mount which throws the camera immediately into the 20k+ range, since it's not included in body only. We really need to find out more about Sony to do a fair breakdown. I mean the cost of Sony body only isn't even known. Your figures seem on the optimistic side from what I am anticipating. Adding 3k or 5k to each number lands closer to my feelings.
 
Ryan Patrick O'Hara said:
Trying to determine this is something much more complicated than the above math.

Accessories differ greatly from company to company, and so does media cost if you are familiar with Red SSD costs. Does the F55 EVF sell separately? Is it included? Red needs a PL mount which throws the camera immediately into the 20k+ range, since it's not included in body only. We really need to find out more about Sony to do a fair breakdown. I mean the cost of Sony body only isn't even known. Your figures seem on the optimistic side from what I am anticipating. Adding 3k or 5k to each number lands closer to my feelings.
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Sorry for lack of clarity.

Pricing estimates excluded power and media, you have to buy them no matter which option you go with and usually folks buy the media they can afford. Having said that,

• Convergent-Design is $1500 for 512GB
• RED is $4000 for 512GB
• Sony SRMASTER (closest comparrison at this point) is $4000 for 512GB

Same with mounts, they all cost money: RED Canon AL mount is $700, or $800 for Nikon. Sony mounts are ~$350 - $600 depending which brand you go with.

But yes, my pricing is extremely optimistic in terms of Sony. I keep thinking of that FS700 to help determine realistically what a 4k RAW recorder can cost. What can they really make those poor FS700 owners pay when they are already looking at a firmware option, and the HXR-IFR5 interface module for $2000, and then the cost of the recorder!? Can Sony's new 4k RAW recorder really be $5000 - $9000 when the SR-R1 sells for $9000 and the SR-R4 has a MSRP of $20,000?????
 
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And they(colours) are very subjective, especially when dealing with raw. I guess it comes down to personal taste, as the differences between nikon's colour and cannons in raw once you correct each to where you want them is extremely minimal in my opinion. Though it is true that some people have a harder time getting an image where they want with certain brands colour science and that is fair but as I see it rather subjective.
 
starcentral said:
Sorry for lack of clarity.

Pricing estimates excluded power and media, you have to buy them no matter which option you go with and usually folks buy the media they can afford. Having said that,

• Convergent-Design is $1500 for 512GB
• RED is $4000 for 512GB
• Sony SRMASTER (closest comparrison at this point) is $4000 for 512GB

Same with mounts, they all cost money: RED Canon AL mount is $700, or $800 for Nikon. Sony mounts are ~$350 - $600 depending which brand you go with.

But yes, my pricing is extremely optimistic in terms of Sony. I keep thinking of that FS700 to help determine realistically what a 4k RAW recorder can cost. What can they really make those poor FS700 owners pay when they are already looking at a firmware option, and then the HXR-IFR5 interface module for $2000? Can Sony's recorder really be $5000 - $9000 when the SR-R1 sells for $9000 and the SR-R4 has a MSRP of $20,000?????
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I guess the real question is what will be included with the Sony cameras. They have different EVF options, mount options, and recording options. We'll have to figure it all out when the time comes because if the camera is more than RedEpic, but has an EVF included as well as a PL mount and etc... the price gap can close.

I have a feeling the future of cameras will be more like video game consoles. Cheapen the price of the camera, perhaps even sell it less than it costs to make and make the bank on accessories. Ya know? I'm not suggesting this is happening, but am saying that it sure looks like camera bodies (and only bodies) are in a race to the bottom. :)
 
With 14 stops of dynamic range, I have no doubt the images from these cams will be incredible. That's 1 stop less than film. I am really giddy about this....can't wait to see the footage and know the price.
 
Steve Castle said:
Totally forgot about the Phantoms. You're right, it does have a global shutter, though the cameras are a good example that demonstrates the sacrifices of global shutter as well. The Phantom Flex for instance, is a very low pixel density sensor, it has 10 um pixels. Basically, meaning that the 10 um pixel acts more like a 6 um pixel after accounting for required pixel-level memory and the additional real estate necessary to add the global shutter. Same goes for the 65 Gold, you should have what should is a ~5 um that is going to act like closer to a 3 um photosite, which explains its limitations in dynamic range.

As you mention before, for the Sony we see an equivalent drop from the F5 to the F55 (ISO2000 to ISO1250), but the comparable Phantom 65 Gold is a closer to ISO 640. The quantum efficiency that Sony is achieving with this sensor is pretty astounding. Either the sensor itself is that much further ahead of the competition that its able to achieve native ISO1250 even with the global shutter or they've figured out a way to minimize footprint of pixel-level memory.

Another point is the price. Phantoms are specialized equipment with a price to justify it. I would be very surprised if the F55 is priced at $25k. You probably know more than I do, but I don't see that price-point being very feasible.




As a small company, I genueinly like CMOSIS, but I have my reservations about the CMV12000. It essentially uses the same 8T(transistor) 5.5 um pixel from their industrial sensors (speeding cameras, license plate readers, that sort of stuff). 8T is fairly complex, and the images haven't been anything to write home about. CMOSIS also uses a 10-bit ADC, which while fast, is clearly showing its industrial roots. But its natural that global shutters are mated with high-speed cameras, because that is where you really do need them.

That said, I would expect the CMOSIS to be a fairly good modern sensor. Though, as with the limitations of technology, I wouldn't expect the sensor to match its rivals in pure image quality, low-light, and dynamic range.
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A minor note but I'd like to point out that the Phantom 65 Gold has 12.5 micron photosites, not 5 micron. It's a REALLY big sensor. Also, note that the Phantom 65 Gold is almost seven years old and still delivers perhaps the single most gorgeous image of any digital camera currently available. A more modern version of the sensor would likely be a higher sensitivity.

But yes, this does not belittle Sony's achievement. The sensors on these two new cameras are very impressive.
 
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S. Matthews said:
And they(colours) are very subjective, especially when dealing with raw. I guess it comes down to personal taste, as the differences between nikon's colour and cannons in raw once you correct each to where you want them is extremely minimal in my opinion. Though it is true that some people have a harder time getting an image where they want with certain brands colour science and that is fair but as I see it rather subjective.
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Yes and no. With some sensors and their applied color science "you can't get there from here" for certain colors. They may be inside REC709 color space but the camera cannot accurately reproduce them. I see this particularly with certain cameras. The F55 Color Gamut is the largest in the world, beyond film, beyong and projection medium, beyond any form of printing or color dye reproduction. You can ALWAYS get there from here with it. This is in reference to the F55 captured RAW, which is the same CFA as the F65.
 
starcentral said:
Can Sony's new 4k RAW recorder really be $5000 - $9000 when the SR-R1 sells for $9000 and the SR-R4 has a MSRP of $20,000?????
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Absolutely. Have you seen the R1 and R4? They're pretty complicated devices with their own operating systems and tons of I/O, they're own control panels, etc. There's an awful lot going on with them for it just being a recorder.

The R5 is just an additional processor and memory access unit...looks like it relies on the host camera for an awful lot...to the point that it needs a $1500-2000 dollar device just to give it some accessible I/O and brains.

The more I think about it, the more I think the R5 might only be around $3-4K. Going out on a limb, I suspect Sony knows that if they don't provide a $4-5K solution for FS700 owners, that they'll have some unhappy FS700 owners on their hands. Sony's not dumb.
 
Nate Weaver said:
Absolutely. Have you seen the R1 and R4? They're pretty complicated devices with their own operating systems and tons of I/O, they're own control panels, etc. There's an awful lot going on with them for it just being a recorder.

The R5 is just an additional processor and memory access unit...looks like it relies on the host camera for an awful lot...to the point that it needs a $1500-2000 dollar device just to give it some accessible I/O and brains.

The more I think about it, the more I think the R5 might only be around $3-4K. Going out on a limb, I suspect Sony knows that if they don't provide a $4-5K solution for FS700 owners, that they'll have some unhappy FS700 owners on their hands. Sony's not dumb.
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Yes, that's the piece of the puzzle here that can't be ignored. Exactly as you put it, the FS700 owners have to be considered here. So $9k for the camera, $2k for the module, then $5-7k even at a stretch seems pretty reasonable.
 
Mitch Gross said:
Yes and no. With some sensors and their applied color science "you can't get there from here" for certain colors. They may be inside REC709 color space but the camera cannot accurately reproduce them. I see this particularly with certain cameras. The F55 Color Gamut is the largest in the world, beyond film, beyong and projection medium, beyond any form of printing or color dye reproduction. You can ALWAYS get there from here with it. This is in reference to the F55 captured RAW, which is the same CFA as the F65.
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Honestly I'm going to take your word for it as at this point from my perspective I have had no problem replicating real world colours that I see with colour correction's on DSLR's and RED's alike. I have not worked with an alexa file in a while, and I have yet to play with an F65 image but I have no doubt about it's quality.

I guess what I'm getting at is at the point I am at with the content I am delivering most colour sciences have hit a point similar to audio where I can get what I want and then some. Though to be honest yes I would love to have a much easier route to get extreme range within colour's, other than creating a series of windows and correction passes. Though I have created my own "post science" (a series of nodes) that gets me close to this relatively easily.

Though this does make me wish I had access to the raw files from tests like the Zacuto one so I could test these things more accurately with the same scene set up and everything. The problem is what do you use as a control? considering what people consider to be natural colours can vary drastically as our vision does.

the reason I say it is subjective is due to the vast differences in peoples tastes in sensors and colour science. Some don't like the newest offerings, some don't like any skin tones aside from film, and some even prefer the looks of nearly decade old cameras. So I find it interesting when some choose to knock one over the other pointing out issues that are more a grading choice than a shortcoming in the colour science, though shortcomings exist most often they aren't even the issues people bring up.

sorry for the rant to condense it I guess what I'm saying is as I see it at this point the difference in colour science isn't as important as feature sets and business models, but that is just my opinion. Oh and I'm not knocking Sony's models at all in fact I applaud them, they have done a great job can't wait to see some tests of these bad boys.
 
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