Plug H4N directly into GH1/2?

Z

zm15

Well-known member
Is it a good idea to go line out from the H4N to the mic in on the GH1 or Gh2 with the proper cable? (as well as record to the h4n memory)

I'm thinking this will save me some time in post to just have the audio attached to the video already.

Or is is better to just record it to the recorder and sync it in post?
 
I set up my 2 GH1 rigs with the H4n capable of receiving audio from a shotgun mic, wireless mic, and/or the on board stereo mics. I use the H4n as both a recorder and mixer, outputting the mixed signal to the H4n through an attenuated cable. I always do dual recording when the audio is too important for just the GH1 to record. It is far easier to insert/replace the sound in the GH1 recording with the H4n audio recorded this way.
 
zm15 said:
Is it a good idea to go line out from the H4N to the mic in on the GH1 or Gh2 with the proper cable? (as well as record to the h4n memory)
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Yes, it is better to record the H4N output on the Gh1/2 as well. It is then much easier to sync the H4N tracks to the video's audio track in post, than it would be to sync to audio recorded through the camera's built-in mics.
 
John Frey said:
I set up my 2 GH1 rigs with the H4n capable of receiving audio from a shotgun mic, wireless mic, and/or the on board stereo mics. I use the H4n as both a recorder and mixer, outputting the mixed signal to the H4n through an attenuated cable. I always do dual recording when the audio is too important for just the GH1 to record. It is far easier to insert/replace the sound in the GH1 recording with the H4n audio recorded this way.
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I've read alot about the drifting issues with the canon's bc of frame rates. Any such issue with your GH1's?
 
lpowell said:
Yes, it is better to record the H4N output on the Gh1/2 as well. It is then much easier to sync the H4N tracks to the video's audio track in post, than it would be to sync to audio recorded through the camera's built-in mics.
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Thanks for the advice! Have you experienced any drifting?
 
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lpowell said:
Yes, it is better to record the H4N output on the Gh1/2 as well. It is then much easier to sync the H4N tracks to the video's audio track in post, than it would be to sync to audio recorded through the camera's built-in mics.
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Why? What do the H4N tracks recorded inside the camera add that the internal microphone cannot provide?
 
The quality of the audio recorded in the GH1 when receiving a proper mix out of the H4n will be of better considerably better than when just using the Gh1's on-board mic. If for some reason you have to use the GH1 audio, you won't have all of the extra noise of using an on-board mic's picking up handling noise, etc. That holds true for any video field production - DSLR or traditional video camera. If you don't care about the sound quality and all of the inherent noise picked up, then go ahead and use the on-board mic!
 
I understand about using a secondary recording sytem to get better audio. What I don't understand is why you would want to re-record that audio to the camera? You're going through two preamps and you're tethered to the camera with a cable, unless you are doing wireless.

What's the benefit of recording the H4N twice?
 
Depending on your setup, it can make syncing easier by giving you a more matching sound pointed at the same things. I've had a hard time at some weddings where the onboards couldn't hear the vows, so finding a sync point is difficult. It could also help you deal with drift. The least likely situation is a safe track in case something happens to the H4n audio, but it would be unlikely for something to go wrong. Not impossible.
 
If for some reason you have to use the GH1 audio, you won't have all of the extra noise of using an on-board mic's picking up handling noise, etc. It is a "backup" thing. Your GH1 audio, if for some reason have to resort to that in post, will simply be a lot better than if it was recorded with the on-board mic. If you are using the visible waveform of the GH1 to help you sync the H4n audio, you will have a cleaner, stronger "looking" waveform to use to do that with compared to the one recorded with the GH1 mic. Obviously, if you can't have the H4n on a rig next to the GH1, then it doesn't matter! What's not to understand?
 
So do most people here record the audio just on the H4n, and leave it unplugged from the GH1 - for that reference track - then sync it back later? Or do most people plug it in directly and not even have the GH1 audio track?
 
Cassius said:
...it can make syncing easier by giving you a more matching sound pointed at the same things. I've had a hard time at some weddings where the onboards couldn't hear the vows, so finding a sync point is difficult...
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That makes sense. Thanks.

It could also help you deal with drift.
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Not sure of the validity of that point. Audio is still being recorded according to different clocks. But in most cases, with modern clocks, there's really not a problem, unless you are recording really loooonnng form video. And even there.....

But there is still the issue of the recorder being tethered to the the H4N, even if you use a long cable.
 
Another easy DIY trick that works very well with a Zoom connected to a GH1...use an MP3 player to feed an 18kHz tone into one channel...this will supress the AGC and improve overall sound quality. I used it for months until I got a Beachtek DXA.
 
I don't personally use any recorders tethered to the camera, I find it to be immensely convenient on set to have the sound guy be a separate unit, allowing both to move independently and all that. I highly recommend it in almost all situations. I can see the arguments to doing so, but none of them seem worth the hassle with how easy syncing normally is.
 
I prefer to use the sync with in camera audio--the GH1 mics are pretty good, just a tad noisy. You need to determine a couple of offsets. The audio in the cam is adjusted slightly inside the cam, creating an offset, to compensate for average distance. The audio output of the zoom may be delayed if it does not have a separate output stage, that is, if it feeds off the converter chip. It may not. Then you factor in the distances to the various mics to calculate your final offset. If multitracking, you use delays in the channels to equalize the timings. With the Zoom 4, if your studio or field mics are 8 feet from the zoom mics, you need to add, say, an 8 ms delay offset referenced to the audio source or sources. Roughly. Depending on the weather.
Also, if the zoom crashes, you have back up audio, however gritty.

There are cases, however, where if you are not used to looking at waveforms, where this doesn't work as well. At a distance of say. 50 feet, the camera audio is going to pick up a lot of reflections, which will change the wave shape a bit. You will still be able to go by the stops and starts of sound, but it won't be as stunningly obvious. That's why a clicker, clapboard or, my fave, glass jar really syncs the audio.

When syncing to the GH1, remember to normalize the sound, and, ideally, add compression, That will make the waves match better. Then, after lock, un-normalize and uncompress, or add whatever processing you wish.
 
DrDave said:
That's why a clicker, clapboard or, my fave, glass jar really syncs the audio.
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I'm curious about your glass jar technique. Care to share?

I tried out the Sescom LN2MIC-ZOOMH4N cable this week with a Nikon DSLR. It worked really well. It required a little testing. Initially I had the headphone output on the H4n set too high. I dialed it back to 50 and it started to sound really nice. The audio from the Zoom H4n sounded worlds better than the audio from the built-in mic on the camera.

One downside of going this route is that you're losing the headphone output of the portable digital recorder, because it's now occupied by this cable. But all in all, I think it's a pretty cool way to work in some situations - but not all.

I made a video about recording the sound this way, and I'm writing a blog post about it too. It should be up on my site later this week, if you're interested...
 
Sam Mallery said:
One downside of going this route is that you're losing the headphone output of the portable digital recorder, because it's now occupied by this cable. But all in all, I think it's a pretty cool way to work in some situations - but not all.
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You can always use a splitter to maintain headphones and output to camera, I've done it, I know it works.
 
Sam Mallery said:
I'm curious about your glass jar technique. Care to share?
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I just tested a bunch of things that could be had easily or brought easily to a gig, the drinking glass or glass jar, if you rap it firmly with anything metallic, like the edge of a spoon, produces a very sharp peak in a wave file for syncing. Also, you can tap on a glass in a public place and it doesn't look at all out of place.
 
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