AC160 Please comment on my video (it runs 2 1/2 minutes so will not take up much time)

kwkeirstead

kwkeirstead

Well-known member
This is the result of one year of working with my AG-AC160A. What is different in the attached is we had a retired national TV lighting man who did a lot of magic in my opinion. The sound is not good - the sound board delivered no output so what you hear is sound pickup from a Rode VideoMic 65 feet away in a roomful of theatre attendees. I did a backup on Tascam but have yet to see how that compares. Would very much appreciate any comments you might be willing to make.
https://vimeo.com/75553576


password= OTTQuartet
 
Colors and contrast are excellent. The picture is nice and bright but nothing is too blown out. What profile have you settled on using for stage work? Nice solid shot composition too, I'm sure they performers will love having a quality recording.

Something that bothered me, and it happens to me all the time as well, were the jitters when reframing at 1:40 etc. When the camera pans one way and then the other before settling. I believe this is called "windup" sometimes and has to do with your tripod head and legs. It also happens when trying to do smooth pans at full telephoto which is exceedingly difficult.

Sometimes people use a rubber band or hair elastic to "pull" the tripod handle in the preferred direction. The elasticity smooths out any inconsistencies we have as human beings.

Also, and I know people say not to do it, but I use image stabilization quite a bit for telephoto stage work even on a tripod. You've got to be smart about it and recognize when it has issues, but I can certainly say it helps me make smooth moves on the long end of the lens. You can even turn it off and on when you're about to make a movement if you're worried about it glitching out at the wrong time.

One more little thing, I wished that the video faded in more smoothly and gradually. Many times I'll start a slow push while the lights are still down to eliminate the bump that happens when starting a zoom. Not sure if this is a stand alone piece but would have liked a fade in from black. This is picky picky though, in live event you do what you can and take it as it comes. Nice work.
 
Thanks Nate ... I use Filmic, 1080/30p for stage events, opening the camera when I have to and steering clear of going beyond f5. I don't like to use gain. I always do a white balance by having someone hold up a card that I make sure is the only thing the camera sees (usually I have to go to 20x optical magnification to achieve this at 50+ feet).

For this particular recording, I was at something like f4.8 because the lighting level was high.

I usually change the iris to whatever it takes to give 30-35% on the meter with the spot set on one of the actor's faces. In this particular event we have singers come on stage in the dark, the lights then jump up, when they are done, it goes dark with actors along the side of the stage commenting on the song that just completed or the one coming up, so go from 4.8 to fully open, then quickly back to 4 or 5 for the next number and fine adjust to say 32%.

Your remark about "windup" is interesting.

I had never heard of "windup" and no clue how/why it happens.

I suppose it is the result of trying to simultaneously re-frame and change iris with the result that I end up overshooting and then feel that I need to come back. It would probably be better to not agonize over the framing but many times you get what you want in the frame but then have to zoom out to avoid chopping off the heads of secondary actors standing back/to the side.

I saw these panning jolts when I used a motorized pan - I abandoned the device because of this plus the fact the particular drive I bought did not have continuous speed adjustments (it was always too slow or too fast for my liking).

The big assist for me has been a remote - I use the Studio 1 Productions remote that handles start/stop, focus (super sensitive), iris and, best of all, a super smooth zoom that has a middle dead zone.

If you go one way or the other from the dead zone, it starts a real slow zoom in/out and you can either let it go or speed it up. You have to make sure you return the dial to the dead zone at the right time, otherwise it just keeps going and going.

So, the huge problems are pans and tilts.

I have a Manfrotto 501HDV head on a 10lb #028 Manfrotto tripod. I see that one can pay a fortune for a head, so there has to be something I am missing. My observation is too little friction and you get highly undesirable movements, and too much friction makes it hard to start moving. It seems you cannot win.

I have a crank on the tripod for vertical movement. If you go real easy you can crank it and achieve a fairly smooth raising/lowering of the camera. Nothing like a slider, I am sure.

Why they can't we have geared cranks for pan and tilt? I cannot find a supplier who sells these nor do I have any idea if I would like a tripod with pan/tilt gearing. They used to be popular for film making, were they not?

How does anyone simultaneously pan and tilt anyway? I find it looks terrible if you first pan and then tilt.

The ideal of course would be a PC screen where you could lasso an area you want to go to AND tell the camera what arc it should go through to get from the current framing to the new framing. This would give you 3D zooming and the notion of pan and tilt would become obsolete.

Should be easier on zoom in. For zoom out however you would need to see a wider shot than the camera sees so that you could go to where you want to be.

Until someone invents this it seems we have static friction to overcome and a need for a deceleration assist that detects when you start to slow down and gives a smooth landing. Do expensive tripods/heads have these features?
 
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We talk a lot about technical issues around here, but I'll comment from a different approach.

I'll assume the singers will end up with a copy of your work. I'll bet that your video will pass along with the families, and many years from now some descendant of the performers will appreciate that you skillfully captured that moment in time.

I consider it work well done.... and even the audio is better than most live shows.
 
Hey Walter - A really top class job there ..I very much doubt whether anyone will see any judder so I wouldn't even worry about it! Watch a drama TV series sometimes and see how much the hand held cutaway camera wobble around in the frame (and that's a National or often Worldwide Production) Yep ..brilliant work and really good job on the audio too!!
 
Walter, I think your image is very nice and the audio was fine for how you had to capture it. You could probably improve the audio with some compression and limiting but outside of having a mic 5-10 feet away it is what it is with theater performances.

Camera movement: This is a big thing with me. Smooth camera movement is what separates "camera operators" and "video people". It takes practice, soft hands and most of all the williingness to concentrate 100% of the time during a live performance. So you are moving with the performance rather than "reacting" to the performance behind the time. This means you are hands on, ready to anticipate and flow with the situation.

This also takes a better tripod head and maybe a longer tripod head arm. Longer arm means bigger radius which results in smoother movement. Also look at positioning the arm so it is more horizontal sticking out from the head. Many many people have the tripod arm pointing almost downward which actually works to lift the tripod rather than help you with directed movement. It takes more effort because you need to have your own arm extended, but this goes back to how much of the 100% you are willing to give? :) Judging by your posts I think you are willing to do what it takes for a great product.

Heavy tripod legs are important as well as having a head that is rated for more pounds than your camera. For the AC-160, I would say the 501 head is having to work too much for smooth, fluid filming.

Preview monitor: This is essential for live filming. You need to be able to see your frame a lot larger than the camera LCD to make movement judgements. Plus having the fixed position of the monitor helps rather an following the moving LCD as the camera changes position.

Two handed camera operation: If you are not using two tripod arms with rear zoom/iris and focus then you need to think of all camera operation as being two handed. One hand on the tripod arm, one on the front of the camera for focus as well as a counter pressure to your other hand. By pressing on the arm and the front of the camera you are using more muscles to decide where the camera gets to go. This gives you more control and allows you to be soft handed as you have force going against force. Just holding the arm alone is force un-opposed which can look sloppy.

Hope this was not over reaching but in my experience, so much emphasis is put on cameras and filmaking that the art of camera operation is lost in the shuffle. Keep on shooting and it will get better.
 
@Bassman2003 - fantastic advice. much appreciated.

I will get a longer tripod head arm - I have been keeping it horizontal and I do help the camera move by putting my hand on top of or below the hood. So, I might as well make that two tripod head arms.

Usually, I attend three performances, one to take notes on the blocking, one to test record and then a third where I try to get it right.

Can you identify a proper head? - the one I have either is too sticky or, one time, when it was too loose, the camera did a tilt of its own, with disastrous results.

What preview monitor do you recommend?

I do understand the need for hands on - You cannot sit down for even a moment, taking a sip of coffee at the wrong moment can do you in etc. - many times you have actors coming in from two stage entrances, dancing across the stage, no end to what these people can do.
 
Glad the post might help a bit. There are a lot of tripod heads, so it is tough to recommend one. The main thing I have noticed is the weight rating the head has. In my experience, it is beneficial to have the head be rated for about twice as much as the weight of the camera. So you would be best looking for a head that is rated for 12 pounds with the AC-160. I have some Manfrotto 516 heads with heavy duty single pole legs with support arms that work well with an XF300 all the way up to a Varicam. The key is having a head that is not outmatched by the camera. But too heavy of a head will not be responsive enough for a lighter camera. The Miller DS10 was nice when I tried it in a store, but they can get pricey compared to the Manfrottos.
 
I now know why I don't already have a geared head. Great idea, but not at $7,499. I found it amusing to read that the Gearnex Geared Head (looks like a superb unit) is '. . designed for both amateur and experienced filmmakers". A Miller head probably is the way to go. So, here's the deal for now. I will first try adding a 2nd tripod arm, if that does not help, I will buy some copper tubing to extend the length of both arms and see what that does.
 
The Miller DS10 ia around $1,000 The Manfrotto 516 is out of production now, so a used one would be affordable. The 504 might be the best fit out of the new models at $499. Don't forget about the legs. I like the 475B or 058B Manfrotto models as they are heavy with a lot of height if you need it.
 
Hmm, just received a telescopic arm for my Manfrotto 501 HDV. It goes to 26 inches (a bit much), but with the setting at about 20 inches I sense a big reduction in stickiness compared to the short arm that came with the 501 HDV. Will try it out this weekend.
 
Walter,

You have to try a pro tripod. Nothing crazy, just something like a Vinten Blue or one of the Sachtler FSB types, or an equivalent Miller. Rubber bands and other workarounds just get in the way of operating the camera. With a good tripod, you can just forget it's there and pull off amazing moves. Pan, tilt and zoom at the same time without jumping through hoops.

I have both both a Vinten Blue and a 501HDV. I used to use the 501 as a travel tripod, but now I use a shoulder mount on my AC130 or just go handheld, the 501 is pretty bad. You shouldn't have to workaround things to try to get the best moves.

Sorry if this is old news... But I am passionate about tripods!
 
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