Photography at School (rant)

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Drew Ott

Wish I were banned.
For those of you who saw my earlier thread (http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=146676), you know that I've had "issues" in regard to photography at school before. It gets better.

Today I was in our school library during my lunch period doing some homework. Next to me was my D90, and a friend of mine wanted to take a few pictures with it. I agree, and he walks around the library for a little bit taking random pictures testing out the camera. He takes a few pictures of people, books, etc.

One of the librarians sees him taking a picture in the direction of a girl who appears to not realize her picture is being taken.

---I'm going to interject and tell a little bit about our librarians. Nobody checks out books from the library anymore because of online encyclopedias and things like that. Because of this, the librarians don't have very much to do. To give themselves something to do, they spend their time making sure there are only 4 people sitting at each table, ensuring nobody is sitting on the floor, checking to see if anybody is eating food, and trying to keep everybody quiet. Their peskiness would be tolerable in most cases; however, there are always at least 3 librarians patrolling at all times, monitoring the activity of everybody.---

The librarian approaches my friend and asks him why he was taking a picture of this girl. My friend tells her that he is in journalism (he is not). The librarian asks him to see all of his pictures, and my friend (stupidly, in my opinion) consents and begins showing her the photos. She asks him to delete the photos he took, and he looks at my from afar trying to figure out what I want him to do. I walk over to the area, tell the librarian that it's my camera, take the camera, and walk back to my seat.

The librarian then goes to the "head librarian" and tells her the story. They talk for a little bit while eyeing us, and eventually the head librarian approaches us. She says, "You guys have to delete all of the photos off of that camera." I respond with something like, "Why is that?" She goes on to tell me that if I don't delete all of the photos immediately, she's going to get my grade-level assistant principal and get him to talk to us. I tell her she should do that (as respectfully as possible), so she does.

In walks our assistant principal. He sits down at our table, leaning forward and staring us down in an effort to intimidate. I meet his eye contact, and listen to him talk to us. He said something like this: "Not only have both of you taken dozens of photographs of people who don't want their picture taken, you are also liars. I want you to delete all of your photos right now." I apologize to him in advance for making the situation into a big deal, but then go on to tell him that I won't delete the photographs or show him the photos because I legally don't have to. He sees that I am going to be a problem, gets out a walkie-talkie, and calls in our campus police officer.

The officer sits down and asks what the problem is. The principal says something like, "These two boys have been photographing people in the library without permission. When asked about it, they lied about what they were doing by saying they were in photojournalism, and refused to show us the pictures. They have both been disrespectful about it." I told them a few things: 1) I never said a word about being in photojournalism, so I'm not a liar. 2) I apologize for seeming disrespectful; It often seems like disrespect when one takes a stand of noncompliance, but I am trying my best to be respectful. 3) I am confident that I haven't done anything wrong, and the only reason I am being difficult is because I value personal rights (in this case the 4th amendment against search and seizure).

The principal and the cop go on to tell me that I don't know my rights as well as they know my rights (I had never talked to either of these people before this day). They tell me that if I think I know my rights better than them, I am wrong. They also tell me that they have probable cause to search my camera to stop anything potentially illegal. In this case, or so they claimed, they were stopping me cropping the pictures of the faces in the background, posting them on YouTube, and making fun of the people. Their apparent "probable cause" was the fact that I am in high school. I tell them that they are right in that I cannot post pictures of the people on YouTube, but they are wrong because I can crop out the pictures of the people in the background and keep pictures of those who consented to being photographed.

We go on talking for nearly 20 minutes more (I don't remember all of the details. The cop told that they also share an interest in photography...), and they tell me that I have two options. The first option is to simply delete all of my pictures. My second option was to, "Make it into a big deal and get my parents involved, who would not be happy with me." The option was to have him take up my camera and keep it in the school office until my parents come up to the school and all of us go through, picture by picture, to make sure that only people who had agreed to be photographed were in the pictures. I disagree to both, and tell them that what I will do is show them the pictures, and they can tell me which ones need to be deleted. I show them the pictures, one by one, and none of them needed to be deleted by the time I got back around to the first picture.

A classic case of ageism (or, something like it). I realize there's a good chance I should have just complied in the beginning, but I love to use my personal rights... especially at school.
 
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Well done Drew.

Taking the time to calmly sit down and talk things through is a great way to ensure that everyone's rights are respected.
Hopefully everyone came away from the conversation with something gained.

- Mikko
 
The problem with that is High School student don't have rights.

You can yell about it all you want and pull the right card - but you don't have any. Locker searches are legal because they are property of the school. Cameras are risky stuff. So are cell phones. When you walk into school your rights as an individual are essentially taken away.

As much as it sucks - you were in the wrong. And they could have made you delete the pictures and there isn't anything you can do.

I was a senior class officer a few years back at my highschool. This issue came up more than once. Camera phones are included. And there isn't anything you can do if there is a claim against you in the school setting. So essentially first and forth amendment rights don't exist. It isn't illegal search and seizure.

But you took a stand, that's great. Just I wouldn't be pushing the system anymore. Because the academic system will bite back and hard.
 
Man, you are way more of a grown up then I was at that age. I would have either popped the guy, or done what he asked, depending on how I felt. Heck, you're more mature than I am now.

I've been teaching my daughter to do exactly what you did: Stand Up for herself in a respectful way She's only 7, but we want her to know that grown-ups aren't always right (or even grown-up), and that if someone ever asks her to do something she thinks is wrong and she refuses, that they might get mad at her, but we won't.

It sucks how petty people can be when you challenge their authority in their own little fiefdom. You did a good thing man. You should be proud of yourself.
 
Mattykins is right, unfortunately that the world is this way, but if you are on a high school, the photos you take are unauthorized, unless prior permission is given. Sucks but true. Let's take it more extreme and you will see why. If you were at an elementary school and started snapping pictures of the students there without permission, would you expect anything different? Those kids are minors too. High school kids are minors as well in the eyes of the law. There is no difference.

In a sense, you did violate their (the subject's) privacy as a high school library is not a public place. And technically, a minor cannot give permission otherwise, as it is a contract, verbal or not.

All in all, it was handled poorly, but you were still in the wrong. Owning a camera does not give you or anyone else the right to just take pictures of whatever or whoever you want. You need to be responsible in how you use the camera, or be prepared for the consequences, of which you are starting to see
 
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I was a senior class officer a few years back at my highschool. This issue came up more than once. Camera phones are included. And there isn't anything you can do if there is a claim against you in the school setting. So essentially first and forth amendment rights don't exist. It isn't illegal search and seizure.


I know that "probable cause" drops down to "reasonable suspicion" in the school setting. However, from the New Jersey vs. T.L.O. Supreme Court case article on Wikipedia:
This reasonable suspicion test, meaning the reasonableness of the search under all the circumstances, is a lesser standard than the probable cause standard. Such reasonableness is based on two criteria: 1, whether the action was justified at its inception; 2, whether the search as actually conducted was unreasonably related in scope to the circumstances which justified the interference in the first place.


I don't know if they had "reasonable suspicion" on us though that we would post the pictures of the people on the internet. It's kind of tricky to figure it out.

A question though for those of you who know a lot about the law. If I am in a conversation about my rights with somebody like a principal, and we disagree, what happens? Hypothetically, let's say we don't ever agree to a compromise.
 
Mattykins is right, unfortunately that the world is this way, but if you are on a high school, the photos you take are unauthorized, unless prior permission is given. Sucks but true. Let's take it more extreme and you will see why. If you were at an elementary school and started snapping pictures of the students there without permission, would you expect anything different? Those kids are minors too. High school kids are minors as well in the eyes of the law. There is no difference.


You know how, on the news, you often see blurred out faces of people in crowds? Is it, technically speaking, illegal to own a version of that footage without blurred faces? I was under the impression that all is good until the pictures are put in a public place.

I would have kindly stopped taking pictures if that is what they asked, but they wanted to delete all of my pictures.

Using that example you gave... with a little twist on it. Imagine a parent comes to a school to pick up their child on the child's first day of school ever. The parent takes a picture of the kid as they are walking out of the building. Would the principal of the school have the authority to seize the camera under suspicion that the parent took many pictures of other children in the school?

Again, I'm not trying to argue with you (or anyone here). I'm trying to understand as well as I can so I'll be more prepared the next time something like this happens.
 
Since the inception of the camera phone, schools generally don't allow cameras. Because pictures are taking of people and then tossed around. Sometimes they are disgusting photos, other times they are digitally manipulated.

Worst case, you are expelled. And yes - that can happen with total legal precedent. If not for the camera - for non-compliance. Suspension is next tier down. You can be held from participating in events in school. Taken off sports teams. Loss of position in student government, negative reviews and recommendations. You are at their mercy. And most schools will take you to court and fight it despite parental intervention. Since that gives them even more reason to not let you off. And they can come up with a huge list of things even when dealing with a trivial matter.

We had a scenario where someone was A) drinking at a dance, and then another group took pictures in compromising poses at the same dance. The school cancelled the next one, brought the drinker to court, and held our Prom and Ball. Which we had to spend hours in meetings to get those dances back, and help rewrite our legal policy.

Fact of the matter is you took a picture of a minor in a private setting. In protection for the institution and for the minor, the school can do whatever they want really. It's great to be well versed in legal proceedings. In the real world it helps. In the academic setting you have no say. I got involved in a cheating thing junior year, and despite me speaking with everyone I needed to, and showing I wasn't involved. (They got me because I answered my questions in the same order as someone else and made the same mistakes) I never did cheat. I was able to negotiate down the penalty. Not even a note in the record, I needed to call my mom and explain it to her in front of the dean. But I had great standing and almost every teacher knew and loved me.

Honestly - you got lucky in this one. Non-compliance is most often worse than showing them the pictures you took. Sure it sucks - but what is a bunch of books? The situation would have ended there. I would honestly just take a step back and avoid another situation like that. Past-records have a huge pull in the decisions that occur involving suspension. And I can assure you - you didn't strike a good note with the higher-ups.

Quick note: I was on the school paper - until I quit because the teacher was a terrible human being. I needed to have permission to have the camera - and a signed note from every person I took a picture of when it wasn't an event. Event photos are different since photographers are granted the permission to take photos and when entering the event you automatically consent.

I had an issue when I brought a 35mm camera to school for a photo assignment. I needed to explain what it was for after I was asked by a teacher. Needless to say - I put my camera away after that.
 
Drew, you also have to look at the intentions of the photographer. A parent who inadvertantly catches a student in frame with their child is one thing, but someone intentionally going out to shoot pictures without permission of people that are unaware in a non-public space, there is no difference in the eyes of the law if they shot pics of a minor in a school bathroom or in the nurse's office. Same exact parameters (minor, unaware, non-public space, no permission). The example is extreme, but you can understand. And if you think, that because you are under-age, that you are exempt for any reason, sorry, the law applies to you as well.

On the news, the requirements are relaxed a bit, because it is considered "protected media", not everyone is blurred out. Also the news primarily shoots in public places, where there is no reasonable expectation of privacy.

This situation is wholly different. Unauthorized pictures of people who cannot legally give permission. Even as a camera guy myself, I would have done something similar to what the principal did.

It all falls down to the facts. You were in a place where privacy can and should be expected, you had no permission (from the school or the parents), and you took pictures when you shouldn't have. That camera you have has big responsibilities and requirements attached to it. If you are wanting to be a professional, you need to learn to accept those responsiblities and rules.
 
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Drew, you also have to look at the intentions of the photographer. A parent who inadvertantly catches a student in frame with their child is one thing, but some intentionally going out to shoot pictures without permission of people that are unaware in a non-public space, there is no difference in the eyes of the law if they shot pics of a minor in a school bathroom. Same exact parameters (minor, unaware, non-public space, no permission). The example is extreme, but you can understand.

On the news, the requirements are relaxed a bit, because it is considered "protected media", not everyone is blurred out. Also the news primarily shoots in public places, where there is no reasonable expectation of privacy.

This situation is wholly different. Unauthorized pictures of people who cannot legally give permission. Even as a camera guy myself, I would have done something similar to what the principal did.

You're saying I should have deleted all of my pictures? That was their initial request. After the long talk, I got them to agree to me just showing the pictures and deciding if any were bad. None of them were. I would have immediately complied if they had just asked me to stop taking pictures.
 
Yes. Those pictures you took were unauthorized, and no matter how you look at it, you violated people's rights. It sucks, and I don't want to curtail anyone's creativity, but when you start taking pictures of people in a non public place as a professional, which I am giving you that title, because we all look at ourselves as pros, you have to know the rules.

If you want to be a photographer, just remember, you have a responsibility to your subject/s to make sure you are within the guidelines. Fall out of those guidelines, you are asking for trouble.

Do you think it is okay for the paparazzi to invade trespass into people's home's (a place where they expect privacy) to take candid photos of their subjects?
 
Look, I hope you continue developing your art. Just be responsible with it. It will save you a lot of trouble in the future.

Learn the guidelines/laws now, you will be ahead of the game. Look at this as just a learning experience.
 
Sorry for making continuing this, but you really think every picture that existed on my camera should have been deleted? I had hundreds of pictures, and only about 10 of those were from the library.
 
Sorry for making continuing this, but you really think every picture that existed on my camera should have been deleted? I had hundreds of pictures, and only about 10 of those were from the library.
If they were shot at school or on school property and of people that did not give permission, yes.
 
Ugh, I'm glad I'm not in high school anymore. I felt tired and dizzy reading that story. Much kudos, Drew. You are one badass, intelligent kid.
 
You can talk about rights all you want but the truth is some people don't like having their pictures taken. I know a guy who ended up in the hospital for shooting what he thought was harmless video. Apparently he captured some images of a guy with his mistress. It got ugly fast.

Also be careful pointing your cameras at kids. Parents don't appreciate that. Mama Bear won't be thinking about civil rights when she jams you D90 up you yinyang for snapping shots of her 7 yearold.
 
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