Photography at School (rant)

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Drew, Doc gave you some good advice but to the issue of the pictures on your camera you didn't have to show them anything but what was shot at the school because the rest were private property. The thing here is that they saw your friend taking some pictures at school with your camera and they wanted to protect others rights. Sometimes people in authority get a little pushy with their position. Legislators make law and the law is found in your local law library which belongs to you, so learn to use it. Also you will find lawyers their doing there research there and if approached properly can yield lots of good advice from them. Students and teachers can make policy that rule how they conduct themselves but not law. Schools get thrown under the bus all the time in cases because they overstepped their level of authority as do people. You need to know the law of your state and county and city of which you live. The law is different everywhere all over the country. What is law in one state is not allowed in others.

When protecting ones rights we have to make choices and conduct ourselves responsibly. Most people are not willing to protect themselves unless they deem it that they have to, because the penalty is too severe not to fight the issue. Some trade away their rights all the time because its easier to pay a fine or cave in to the authorities then to fight. The best approach is to know when and how to pick your fights. There is a time to standup for your rights ( if you know them ) and protect them and there is a time to take the easy route. If your busy with life sometimes its better to go the way of the cheapest route and other times you need to standup because its wrong. When I'm accused of something that I did not do I would never take any penalty to settle it.

I have challenged cases to the Attorney Generals office of many states and before judges to win cases or setup points of appeals or have the law clarified. We need to know the law and to uphold the law to be responsible citizens. If we make mistakes we can change our behavior and not make the same mistakes again.

When you find yourself in any negative situation you can diffuse it most of the time with your attitude. My grandmother always told me you can call somebody a sob or you can call them a sob. One way they will laugh with you and the other they will want to fight you. Sometimes its better to ask for forgiveness than to get permission first but at school its better to ask for permission first and to confine you activities to what is permissible.

Good luck
 
Good on you, Drew. I would have done the same thing in that situation (except for I may have decided "f them, get my parents involved" because my mom would be mad at THEM, not ME). I would like to address two things:

1) Your librarians are insane. We have two. They make copies, etc for teachers and make sure we don't look at inappropriate things on the computer or get too rowdy. No "four to a table" crap or anything like that.

2) It pisses me off when people say we don't have rights at school. You, as an American citizen, have rights wherever you go. The constitution says so. I would like these people to point me to the point in the supreme law of the land where it says I don't have rights. If that point is where it says at age 18 you are a legal adult, it is bull. Let me ask you this: am I an American citizen? Yes. I was born here, I have documentation that says so. That means, as a citizen, I have the rights given in the Constitution. You also have the RIGHT to stand up for your RIGHTS and you exercised it brilliantly.

Now, further, looking into photo laws, this site was posted a while back on the Isara forums and I tracked it down for this occasion: http://photojojo.com/content/tips/legal-rights-of-photographers/

I don't want to argue, I just want to be recognized for what I am and what I have. :)
 
I'm hearing great advice from everybody. I still don't feel like I completely understand my rights though.

The "worst" picture on the camera was a picture of a friend smiling at the camera with somebody else's head in the background. If my intent was to crop the photo around the kid smiling at the camera, can they make me delete that photo? What if I took an amazing photo of a consenting individual, but there was a head in the background? Would I have to smuggle my un-cropped pictures home, crop the picture, and destroy the evidence (original photo)?

Just trying to understand. The only legal things I can find that are relevent are New Jersey v. T.L.O. and Tinker v. Des Moines.
 
In this case, Drew, what rights do you think you have? Or should have? The right to violate privacy is not even a right I have as an adult. You cannot assert that you do have that right, no matter how you consider it. And a minor (consenting as you said) cannot give you that right. Only a parent can. By her giving you consent, means she is entering into a contract with you, and if she is under age, she cannot legally do that. The subject matter of the picture is not as important as you taking the pictures in the first place.

By bringing a camera in from home to school, and taking pictures of underage minors, can you see where this can be misconstrued? This is why it is not allowed in the first place. A person has a right to privacy, which has been violated here.

The school was doing what it should in order to protect the rights of you and all of your fellow students. Otherwise, what is to prevent some pervert coming over and taking pictures of the cheerleaders or basketball team while changing? Change the rules for some, you have to change them for all. For that matter what about a pervert student doing it? Does that change anything? No.

Penguin, I know what you mean but legally a minor does not have all the rights an adult does, otherwise kids/teens/young adults can vote, drive, sign contracts........The rights of the child are held by the parents and through the parents or guardian, until they reach the age of majority. That is when society and the law look upon them as legally responsible for their own actions, and they can make their own decisions.
 
If you want some info next time to show them that perhaps you do know more about your rights than they do...

Probable cause was articled in a two prong test in the Warren court with Aguilar v. Texas (1964)

The court later developed the test more fully in Spinelli v. United States (1969) and thereafter referred to it as the Aguilar-Spinelli test.

Criticism of the test coupled with changes in the Supreme Court personal created an atmosphere in which the court would reevaluate Aguilar-Spinelli. The opportunity came in Illinois v. Gates (1983). Chief Justice Rehnquist not only analyzes the concept of probable cause but also provides an interesting example of how the Court deals with precedent it no longer feels to be prudent policy.

www.oyez.org and www.findlaw.com are great sites to read about Supreme Court cases and make sure to read the actual court opinions of the justices to find exactly what the law is.

If you really want more 4th amendment info also look into:

Hot Pursuit - Warden v. Hayden (1967)
Plain View Doctrine - Arizona v. Hicks (1987)
Exclusionary Rule - Wolf v Colorado (1949), Mapp v. Ohio (1961)
and exceptions to the Exclusionary Rule - United States v. Leon (1984), Hudson v. Michigan (2006)
 
some thoughts...

1. students have a lot fewer rights than people do in the "real world". i'm not saying that's fair, but that is the reality. so when evaluating the situation you have to look at it through the restrictive environment of a school setting because that is where the incident occured.

2. schools are very sensitive about things like taking pictures of minors. the reason is because of liability; basically they don't want to be sued. when i was a teacher, we had to get all of the parents to sign a consent form allowing the students to be photographed for school related things like yearbook, the newspaper, and newsletters.

3. the school is within their rights to confiscate your camera. they can argue that the pictures were taken without parental permission. they can order you never to bring your camera back to school again. i don't believe they can make you erase your pictures, but taking the camera away from you would have the same effect as you would no longer have access to the pictures.

4. in a conflict, your words can either diffuse the problem or escalate it. knowing how to smooth things over is a skill that will come with maturity and experience dealing with problems.

5. it's also a skill to able to accurately assess how big or small a situation actually is. was this about a fascist trying to take away the civil liberties of a defenseless student or was it about a librarian trying to get a guy to stop screwing around with a camera in the library?
 
Guys, I know it seems like you should have rights in school. You are an american citizen yes. But Nick - unfortunately your argument holds zero ground in the school setting. Cell phones are not allowed in many schools. Can you argue it's your right to have them? Sure - will you succeed? No.

Can you make a speech about how the US sucks in school. Yes. Will you get in trouble. Yes. Depending on the school. There are a different set of rules. Entering the classroom is a totally new legal playing field.

There are no rights. The amendments mean nothing. If they want to search your bookbag. They can. You can protest - but they will hold you. They will get police and say you are non-compliant thus giving them even more legal reason to do the search. The search will happen.

Just as they can search your locker and the stuff in your locker at any second. If they have cause or not. They can search it. Random searches as they call it.

Same situation in an airport. Random searches. Illegal search in seizure? Try telling the TSA that as you get pulled out of line or they go through your book bag. Take a picture in front of a powerplant or bridge? Illegal search and seizure? Tell the guard that is demanding your camera that. They will delete the pictures. And if you don't comply - they will get legal authority to make you do that because you are violating the security of that institution.

Just because you have rights on paper doesn't mean you can get away with them all the time. Hate to lay it out like it is. But if you think pulling the "I have rights" card will work. You are sorely mistaken.
 
Interesting, but Search and Seizure precedent does not apply so directly here, Kubrick. A school is an institution, not unlike a prison, federal facility, etc. The Supreme Court has upheld that just being on the premises of such places, a person forfeits many of these rights. Outside of these premises you can assert these rights, disagree to them, no admittance, simple.

Does the school have a policy against cameras? If so, it was violated and any work or pictures are fruit of the poisoned vine.
 
Matt, a school is allowed to say that I cannot have my cell phone on during class. I am on THEIR property and I must follow THEIR rules. I don't have the right to pull my phone out in class and text my friend in the room next door. It is the same as businesses requiring dress codes.

They most certainly CANNOT search my backpack. The locker? Absolutely. That is their property. The bag? Hell no. I own it and as long as they don't have a video (or some other evidence) of me putting an illegal item (gun, knife, baby...) into my bag then they have no right to search it. If they try, I will pull out my handy pocket constitution and toss it at them (FTR: I don't actually carry a pocket constitution).

When you go into an airport you know there is a chance of searches because they tell you that they will do it. You are waiving your right. In no school clause does it say that they can search my bag without probable cause nor does any law state that I have any less rights than when I am in my house or at the store. There are certain rights I won't have until I am 18 or even 21 because the law STATES THAT.

I'm sorry, but if you try to treat me like a criminal and take away my rights in a place you are telling me I have to go, I will give you hell.

EDIT: What Doc said above made me realize I forgot to finish this post. If the school has a policy then I have to follow it when on their property. My school doesn't have a policy saying I have no rights and until they do I will fight for that.
 
Well, I would suggest you comply if they ask to search bookbags. I can't tell you anything that will make you believe otherwise - aside from that fact I've spent countless hours debating student rights a few years back when I was in high school after a wave of searches for narcotics.

A school is different than the streets. Its a fact you have to live with.
 
Nick the question is wether you want the Red pill or the Blue pill. If you don't have a propensity for the law please don't read any further.

My intentions are not to offend anyone - but this is what I have found out. Also I usually don't enter into this kind of discussion here but am going to make the exception.

Nick please let me answer your question for you ( No ) you are not an American Citizen with Constitutional Rights. You are a US Citizen with Civil Rights. Most people in this great country believe that they live an existence out of the 1800's but in reality do not. Things have changes and one of the most invasive things to do is to teach someone that they are not whom they believe they are legally. When people have a hit to their sence of security they get quite or really mad and wont believe the truth when its presented to them. I was included in with these people until I took a constitution class with Lewis Stradling who is know for getting president Ronald Regan to implement Constitution Week in America. He taught me how things have changed legally form what our founding fathers had set up originally. At the same time I was taking another class on personal rights protection with some good friends of mine. My friend Rodger was in the class and he challenged all foundations that I believed in and asked me to have a open mind and challenged me to call the Attorney General's office of the state we lived in and I did. I called them and many since and found out for my self that I needed to update my understanding of the law and what the law says and where I stand in the law. Well to say the least I was shocked to find out that he was right and I was wrong. He said that he had challenged a couple hundred people to call and I was the first to do so (the ostrich effect) . I'm glad that I did because once you know the truth you can see thru the propaganda that comes our way each and every day and each four year cycle. I love my country and am very patriotic and was in dismay to find out that the world is a much different place then I realized.

I called the Attorney General's office of AZ, Me, Wa, Ca to name a few and got the same answer.

No sir you are not a state citizen you are a Resident and your Citizenship is with the The United States which is a separate country than The United States of America.

No you can not become a State Citizen

No you do not have State Constitutional Rights you have Civil Rights and Privileges.

The State has power over you by Contract Agreement.

You are bound by Statue Law which comes form the UCC Law.

Why - When you volunteered for the Social Security Program your Citizenship changed.

The Supreme Court has had five cases which talk about the difference of being a American Citizen or a US Citizen.

We all used to be Americans and when we left the boundaries of The United States of America we automatically became US Citizens so we could be protected by our councilets in foreign countries. When we returned we again became American Citizens.

On and on I was wrong in my Beliefs and Rodger was right.

Now I live with better understanding and when the Supreme Court throws out 98 percent of the cases that come before them each year I understand why. People claim to have rights when in fact they have privileges.

A Right can never be taken away or altered, only given up freely.

Privileges can be taken away or altered at any time the government wants to.

This is common knowledge among lawyers but not for the public. Before the 1900's we all were in common law at about 95 percent and 5 percent corporate cases when we went to court. These courts still exist but now we all are tied into statue law and we are not heard in common law courts.

I hope you do some studying and research for yourself and learn to protect your rights. You do have rights and can protect them in the law but only if you know whats going on around you and how the law works.

I have learned that we can make a resavation of our constitutional rights under the law and have exercised to do so for myself. It is an individual responsibility that I can only do for myself unless we change the Law back to Common Law.

Good luck
 
ConspiracyPenguin said:
They most certainly CANNOT search my backpack. The locker? Absolutely. That is their property. The bag? Hell no. I own it and as long as they don't have a video (or some other evidence) of me putting an illegal item (gun, knife, baby...) into my bag then they have no right to search it. If they try, I will pull out my handy pocket constitution and toss it at them (FTR: I don't actually carry a pocket constitution).
Click to expand...


You're right about this. New Jersey v. T.L.O. states that students can only be searched in school under reasonable suspicion.

I have yet another question to toss out, because I don't know the answer. My school makes us agree to their school rules. We have to sign a packet during the first week of school, otherwise we get Saturday detention until we do. If the packet has things that violate the few rights I get at school (protection against search and seizure without reasonable suspicion), how could someone fight that? I think I want to set up an interview with my principal, get her to sign a contract before the interview, and ask her lots of questions about this kind of stuff.

Another (in my opinion) injustice is our cellphone policy. If a cellphone is seen or heard on campus, it is taken up and $15 is required to get it back. I don't disagree with the ban of cellphones, but charging students with money seems incredibly unfair. Our school has students who live in their cars, and students who live in million+ dollar houses. The fact that the only punishment is money doesn't seem right to me. There is also the question of what is done with the money that I'm curious to find out. I can't imagine that the school can charge kids money and use that money to buy new football helmets.
 
Remember they can kick you out for breaking their contract but they fall under federal guidelines and also I believe that some schools have lost the case for charging to get your personal property back. I challenged this with my two boys in school and won each time and they gave back the property without paying a fine.
 
Kubrick71 said:
If you want some info next time to show them that perhaps you do know more about your rights than they do...

Probable cause was articled in a two prong test in the Warren court with Aguilar v. Texas (1964)

The court later developed the test more fully in Spinelli v. United States (1969) and thereafter referred to it as the Aguilar-Spinelli test.

Criticism of the test coupled with changes in the Supreme Court personal created an atmosphere in which the court would reevaluate Aguilar-Spinelli. The opportunity came in Illinois v. Gates (1983). Chief Justice Rehnquist not only analyzes the concept of probable cause but also provides an interesting example of how the Court deals with precedent it no longer feels to be prudent policy.

www.oyez.org and www.findlaw.com are great sites to read about Supreme Court cases and make sure to read the actual court opinions of the justices to find exactly what the law is.

If you really want more 4th amendment info also look into:

Hot Pursuit - Warden v. Hayden (1967)
Plain View Doctrine - Arizona v. Hicks (1987)
Exclusionary Rule - Wolf v Colorado (1949), Mapp v. Ohio (1961)
and exceptions to the Exclusionary Rule - United States v. Leon (1984), Hudson v. Michigan (2006)
Click to expand...




You don't sacrifice your fourth amendment rights when you go to school. Do you sacrifice privileges, try not to confuse the two. Check my above post if you want to learn about real fourth amendment rights that are guaranteed by the U.S. Constitution, no matter where you are in the U.S.

A school police officer can't just search you because you are on their property, they have to have cause, read those Supreme Court cases if you want to learn about your fourth amendment rights.
 
Impressive, Michael T.

A lot of people confuse rights and privileges too often.

There is a right to own a car but to drive it is a privilege.

Kubrick, to use your argument, I can go onto a Federal facility and take whatever pictures I want? I can have my backpack with no fear of being searched? I disagree. When you are at certain facilities, your "rights" are curtailed. I cannot expect to not be searched at any moment. I have been at these facilities, and if I touted the Fourth Amendment, the only result would maybe been a chuckle at my expense. Nuclear facility guards have no sense of shared humor.

So where would my 4th Amendment rights be there?

What about an airport? I hate my bags being searched but, it is what it is. If I disagree, I don't get to board a plane, and TSA gets to give me a "special" exam. Screaming 4th amendment may be a good argument, but I still get in the end (pun intended). Sucks but it is true. This is not the world we grew up in. It has changed.
 
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Michael, I appreciate your input and time. I am more than open to new ideas which is why my opinions on current events have changed as of late. But that aside, I do have a few problems with some of your statements:

I AM a citizen of The United States of America (the only country on this continent) as per section 1 of the 14th amendment of the US Constitution:

All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.
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I was BORN here therefore I am a citizen and as a citizen and guaranteed protection. Like the search thing. You may NOT search MY bag without proving that you have a valid reason. That all being said, as I said, I am open minded and will look into the different sources you cited and find information for myself. If there is one thing I have learned it is that you can never trust ONE source on ANYTHING.

Thank you again for your time, but I will continue to stand up for my rights as a citizen when I am in school. I think I will withdraw myself from this portion of the discussion at this juncture because I don't want to pretend to know something I don't nor do I want to give the impression that I am in someway ignorant of naive. I may report back after I talk to some more people about this issue.

Drew, that is poo pooed up to charge to get phones back. At my school it can't be on during class or passing periods but we can use them before or after school or during lunch. There is no reason to charge, it is unjust and I think worth looking into. If my school did something like that I would be up there with a camera (we always get back to cameras, don't we? :grin:)
 
Your right Doc and there are three parts of property, rights, possession, and use and each is spelled out under the law. In each state the State Supreme Court has ruled what rights or privileges you have when it concerns driving. Here in Washington State the court has ruled that having a drivers license is a quasi contract. It is a binding contract when they use it and not a contract when you use it to fight a case. Its hilarious.
 
Nick my intent was to give you something to think about and to understand. Its when you stand in front of a judge that matters, all of the rest is esoteric phooy. You do have rights and I was presenting the challenge that you face in front of a judge. You need to know how to present a case and protect your rights and have the desire to do so. I like what you had to say and you have heart and thats more important than knowing all the law. If you have heart and love to be patriotic then you will learn the rest.

Then there is the Patriot Act and it needs to be governed tightly.

Good luck
 
Penguin, I am going to respond to you like a lawyer here. Let's take the exact cite you used.

All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside.

You are subject to the jurisdiction, meaning if the government decides something else without your knowledge or permission, you are still subject to it. So you are a citizen of two entities here, your state and the US, there is an interesting argument. What takes precedent? It changes, dependent on the circumstances.

That "and" between United States "and" of the State wherein... is a biggie. It means both sets of laws apply here.

No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States;

Why not rights? I see immunities and privileges but not rights. Again we are dissecting it legally.

nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law;

Meaning, under due process of law, you can be deprived of life, liberty, or property. If a school has an accepted policy.........

nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

The State is considered a person in court, so they receive the same "rights" as you do, yet they have more standing as they can cite "greater good" in their argument.

I am not an expert or a lawyer on Constitutional Law, but with a little research, you will see how the Constitution is a great document, but is no longer really something followed to the letter. Each year we see different "interpretations" of the Constitution that become law.
 
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Word bond Drew. Way to stick up for yourself! Stop these Orwellian bastards from getting in your face. Everyone has a knee jerk reaction to everything now days. You rock man! Break the system of controls!

-Nate
 
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