Philip Bloom's "Hirano San"

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I personally can't wait to try the camera out for myself. People getting their shorts in a bind and furiously cancelling pre-orders over one run-and-gun test shoot need to relax. I understand if you realize it's not for you but there are so many circumstantial things to factor in here.

Thanks to those responsible for getting this shoot together for our benefit by the way. It is appreciated.
 
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Barry_Green said:
The problem with that philosophy is that whining is the one tactic that isn't going to work, at least with me. I am instead far more likely to say that hey, there's a whole lot of whining going on, and I sure don't need that in my life, so -- forget posting more stuff, why ask for agony and grief?" In other words, too much whining = killing the goose that lays the golden egg.

But... dammit... at least Philip is out there making films. Which is a lot more than I can say for the recent trends on this site! Despite a massive surge in membership in the last year or two, and despite the "democratizing" of filmmaking that the DSLR has brought -- our ThrillFest had far and away the lowest participation of any of our October fests. More members, more whining, and fewer filmmakers. What's up with that?

Folks, seems to me like more of you need to show us what you can do. Get out of the stands and on the field. With all the DSLR empowerment going on, we should have had 150+ entries in ThrillFest. I see lots of complaining in this thread, so I know you folks are out there. But let's quit taking jabs and complaining, and instead show us what you can do. I and everyone else would be far more inclined to listen to complaints from actual filmmakers who are using the product, than I would from whiners taking jabs from the safety of the Internet.

Look at the comments on vimeo, they're roundly positive. Then look at the comments on this thread, they're roundly negative. What's wrong with this picture?
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I also think the negativity directed at P and B is a bit rude. It's the cam were talking about.
I have 18 years experience as a Photojournalist in Washington, DC.
Do any of you really know what it takes to turn around a quality product with that kind of time constraint?
Gather, compose, edit and deliver these elements, let alone being in a foreign country?!
Let me know when your all due back at "Boys Town".

Thanks for the hustle Phillip and Barry. Hope the finished models are are top notch.
 
Steve Kahn said:
Thank you Jan. Your presence here is appreciated. I generally agree with your appraisal except...



When one looks at Mr. Bloom's "South" which is ungraded footage it looks like the gamma curve he was using was setup already for delivery. That is with sharp contrast and colors, crushed blacks and clipped whites. It is a bit disturbing because we, most DPs that is, would like to see a flatter image that is not necessarily ready for mastering but will instead maximize detail and dynamic range.

This was the same complaint with the codec, AVCHD, as well. To us it is a delivery codec not a capture codec and certainly not an intermediate editing/color grading/VFX codec.

You've called this camera "professional", albeit inexpensive, true, but IMHO those two things should have been set up in a more professional manner.

Otherwise, no complaints. Thank you. My order is in. Much appreciated.

Steve
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I wouldnt call it "us" i would disagree on the codec part. just saw "monsters" and it was shot with mpeg2 35mbps 8bit 4:2:0. it pretty much faired well
 
Cosimo Bullo said:
True all, Jan, but all of us have also been blown away by footage from Phil et al before with the 5d, and this footage just doesn't feel right. Those of us old enough remember what it felt like to see the first HVX200 footage... for whatever reason this footage isn't speaking of us like that.
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Then don't buy it.
 
Steve Kahn said:
Thank you Jan. Your presence here is appreciated. I generally agree with your appraisal except...



When one looks at Mr. Bloom's "South" which is ungraded footage it looks like the gamma curve he was using was setup already for delivery. That is with sharp contrast and colors, crushed blacks and clipped whites. It is a bit disturbing because we, most DPs that is, would like to see a flatter image that is not necessarily ready for mastering but will instead maximize detail and dynamic range.

This was the same complaint with the codec, AVCHD, as well. To us it is a delivery codec not a capture codec and certainly not an intermediate editing/color grading/VFX codec.

You've called this camera "professional", albeit inexpensive, true, but IMHO those two things should have been set up in a more professional manner.

Otherwise, no complaints. Thank you. My order is in. Much appreciated.

Steve
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Assuming the AF100 is anything like the DVX100a or HVX200 that I have used in the past, there will be numerous Scene Setting controls to adjust the image (detail, master pedestal, color levels, matrices, gamma, etc).

I almost never used the default settings, and I don't imagine it will be any different if and when I get my hands on the AF100. In my opinion, some of the default Scene Files like "Spark" were always a little extreme.
 
All I see are a bunch of whining little brats here in this thread.

Even if the camera has drawbacks (which of course it does and every camera does) are you the one spending the money to develop, design, manufacture, etc. a camera to meet the needs we've all been expressing here on this forum and on the internet since the DSLR craze? NO YOU'RE NOT. Panasonic is trying guys, cut them some slack, and wait until you get your hands on one before making rash judgement calls on a video shot, edited, and delivered extremely quickly...not to mention in the hands of someone who's never used it before and knows barely a thing about what kind of result they'd get later that night in FCP.

If you were the guy shooting the video, besides some different framing choices perhaps, you'd be getting grilled for no reason right now too, so shut your hole and enjoy the information that Panasonic is willing to provide us before you potentially buy. You think they invited all those people including Barry and Phil over for tea? They care about making the best camera they can at a price range that makes business sense for them.

Now shut up and go shoot something.
 
PLEASE...all you whiners go ahead and cancel your pre-orders

...this will move MY 2 AF-100's pre-orders to the front of the line...

BOOYAH!
 
The unfortunate thing about this thread turning into a viper's nest is that there is a legitimate technical discussion to be had but it keeps getting drowned out by the drama.

This is a $5k camera that does a lot of things really well (like minimize aliasing and morie) and may or may not do something things so well (like the relatively high degree of clipping), something that might be eliminated had Mr. Bloom or anyone else shooting with it the time to get a better feel or the settings, or maybe not, none of us know, we can only go by the little bit of footage we've seen.

And while it's ridiculous to criticize the shooters and the camera, it's perfectly reasonable to point out percieved flaws in the footage, if only to understand why they exist and learn how and to what degree they may be addressed.
 
Jan_Crittenden said:
And the likelihood of having a Marshall monitor attached to their cameras at a Panasonic demo would be....? ;-) Everyone can be a critic, and until you have a chance to work with it, you will not know its full capabilities, or until someone does a real crackerjack job in learning the camera and shooting with it. And even that will not give you the experience of creating great images with it.
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Well I'm not sure how Panasonic would like a Marshall (or any other brand of monitor with false colours/exposure tool) on the AF100 but there sure were different brands of lenses...
Anyways, I think if they had an easy to use tool to judge exposure it would have avoid clipping. It seams they didn't use the in-camera tools or went a bit on the wild side in grading.

And Jan I'm not bashing down on either camera or filmmaker, just pointing out what I observe.
 
agcohn said:
Assuming the AF100 is anything like the DVX100a or HVX200 that I have used in the past, there will be numerous Scene Setting controls to adjust the image (detail, master pedestal, color levels, matrices, gamma, etc).
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Agreed. That is my hope as well. The DVX100a was my first camera and if there is anything like "cine-like D" I will be happy.
 
I'm sure what point you are making. If you can produce better footage with the Canon 7D or 5D mkII, or a hacked GH1 (GH13), why even consider this cam?
 
David S. said:
I'm sure what point you are making. If you can produce better footage with the Canon 7D or 5D mkII, or a hacked GH1 (GH13), why even consider this cam?
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Simply the 1080p 60fps. That was really exiting to me. And a higher-fidelity image. But the footage so far just doesn't have the "pop" of even the T2i. I'll keep my eye on this cam once people start using it on music vids and such... but it makes me wonder... what is Canon doing that makes that DSLR footage look so good? We all know it's not the codec, that's for sure. Which brings up the point: Codecs don't make good-looking images... they make "quality" images.


Oh well. Whatever. Sharpness is over-rated and honestly the DSLRs have enough detail for anything besides 2k projection and Imax. BTW, has anyone seen DSLR 1080p projected? ...it looks pretty damn good.
 
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Here are my two cents:

First of all, I liked the piece. (*gasp* OMG he's actually talking about the content of the film) As a city symphony film meets character study, it bridged the genres rather well. Secondly, it showed off the subject, which is what a camera should probably do. In other words, I really liked Philip's choice of things to point at, which reflected not only the culture and region he was filming, but the character he was following with the camera. As for the image quality, etc. - there were maybe two shots that looked technically deficient, but everything else looked fantastic.

These forums are fascinating. It boggles my mind that people could say such negative things about this piece.

[digression] Thomas Vinterberg shot Festen with a $700 camera. Not only is it a wonderful film, but it's beautiful to look at, in all its nasty DV glory. Yet for all the fetishization of technology that goes on within this website, you'd think the "best" available technology was the key to producing brilliant art. Non-existent or puerile ideas that used to be shot on the DVX100 do not become Hitchcock when shot on the RED. Provided you have a worthwhile narrative, the best camera...is always...the one...that works. [/digression]

It's rather obvious, from my perspective, that the AF101 is going to satisfy all the goals it has targeted.

So, thanks, Phil, for showing us your work that just so happened to be shot on this camera. I can tune out again, knowing the AF101 is a solid camera that will do what I need it to do. Meanwhile, I'll dodge the cannibalistic nerds on my way to the dvxuser exit.
 
Jan_Crittenden said:
And the likelihood of having a Marshall monitor attached to their cameras at a Panasonic demo would be....? ;-) Everyone can be a critic, and until you have a chance to work with it, you will not know its full capabilities, or until someone does a real crackerjack job in learning the camera and shooting with it. And even that will not give you the experience of creating great images with it.
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I'd prefer to have my Panasonic BTLH80 on there Jan :)

But yes Im not sure how anyone can be expected to have this camera mere hours and know how to get the best performance from it especially for the variable conditions on a single day. This is a new camera, how much experience can you expect someone to have with it? People shooting these are coming from differing backgrounds as well and may have different expectations of how all the nuances in settings may or may not perform.

You also have to remember the purpose of why these guys where chosen - to go out and push it and then report back. So - they are pushing it.

Theres no way I would go out the first day I have this camera and shoot a professional job with it, quite simply too many variables I dont understand. Exactly the reason why if Im shooting on a camera system Ive never used before I spend some time with it before shoot and if I can Ill have someone on hand that knows it.

Ill be taking mine to Japan late December and shooting with it for two whole weeks before I bring it home and starting shooting any real jobs with it.

BTW Philip - how'd you like Kiyomizu? Easily one of my favourite places in Japan. Theres a little shrine up the back hill from the main one where the girls / women go and pray for a boyfriend or to get married etc which I stumbled upon one day and took some shots - there was easily a fifty metre long que waiting to get to it.
 
I can't speak for everyone. I saw the crews.tv test and thought wow! I no longer think that way. That was a controlled environment with the best possible gear (ultra primes, separate recorder, expensive kino flo lighting). Instead of taking a $10K lens and putting it on a $5K body, I'd rather invest in a better camera.

However.. knowing what you can get out of the camera is brilliant and i'm sure many people will achieve the same look and feel for 1/10th the price. Especially once they have more time to find out how to tweak the camera to the best possible image quality.

I do think the hype hurt this camera, that happens with so many products -- its impossible to live up to. For $5000 its a better GH2 in a camcorder body and for that price its worth it. If you don't want a camcorder body, get the GH2. Either way Panasonic wins.
 
henryolonga said:
I am no body special friend. I am just a musician who wants to make his own videos and make some feature films and if you read my post - I admitted that I am a wannabe.
I admire Phillips ability to do tests and get a feel for the look of certain cameras but apart from the short 'people and places films' he has made I have yet to see a real film from him.Surely the phrase 'genius' should be reserved for those who have done it and been recoginised by the critics that count? Only saying........
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^ I'm with this guy.

Philip is good... no doubt. But "genius" come on... I've seen much better short films that get WAY less exposure. He was just at the right place at the right time when the DSLRs hit the internet. Again, not disrespecting his craft... because he is a good operator. But I honestly think that most of us here could go out and shoot "Dublin's people" if we wanted... but few of us, most likely none, could go out and shoot The Departed.
 
I just cant wait to sit down beside it and play whit the image setting.
Gamma, white, black, flare? lol it would be nice, black gamma, matrix, saturation, contrast, details ....
I think you just need to tweek it like you want and save your setting and judge the cam after that.
 
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