Petition to increase the GH1's functionality with increased bitrate and HDMI-out

This camera basically follows the specs on the recording side of the new Panasonic HDC-TM300 and the other cameras on that line. They top at 17 mbit/s. Its actually a hybrid of those and the G1. What makes the difference between the TM300 and the GH1 is the sensor, a lot bigger at 4/3. And what makes the difference between the other VDSLRs and the GH1 is the manual controls. Panasonic took a big step with the GH1 but clearly on the safe side of the business. I see them more going full blown 4/3 on a HPX300 configuration at maybe upwards of 3K to compete with the Scarlet and 4K and higher on the Varicams, and others on the high price side of the market, to compete with the Red One when a big part of the theaters are ready to project at 4K. They have to shift the products and the market slowly and surely for them to stay in business and always have products that make sense at all levels of the price scale.
 
Nighthawk said:
This is so true and I myself am constantly falling into the trap you mention and not remembering who this product is actually aimed at. I do believe, however, that Panasonic definitely underestimated the attraction it would have to the video crowd.
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I do know what you guys are talking about on one hand, but on the other $1500 really isn't that cheap and is more expensive than any other 'consumer' camcorder on the market by at least a few hundred and only about five hundred dollars cheaper than their 'prosumer' avccam hmc40. Its price also puts it at the high end of DSLRs making it more expensive than most there too. It is probably more borderline prosumer than consumer.

I do appreciate that they've put a lot of video features into the camera and it might be one of the most advanced VDSLRs yet. still, a couple of firmware updates would push it over the top imho. I don't think anyone's asking for major overhauls but just a few tweaks.

I'd also like to make clear what I was talking about with dvd and blu-ray. of course most of us are going to want to burn dvds or blu-ray at some point- I don't think 24 mbit/s would affect that. it would only affect transferring files directly to a dvd somehow (as in those mini-dvd recordable camcorders you used to see a few years ago). for normal burning to a dvd we would have to recompress the files anyhow but in editing (in whatever program) you would want them as uncompressed as possible.
 
killacam said:
I do know what you guys are talking about on one hand, but on the other $1500 really isn't that cheap and is more expensive than any other 'consumer' camcorder on the market by at least a few hundred and only about five hundred dollars cheaper than their 'prosumer' avccam hmc40. Its price also puts it at the high end of DSLRs making it more expensive than most there too. It is probably more borderline prosumer than consumer.

I do appreciate that they've put a lot of video features into the camera and it might be one of the most advanced VDSLRs yet. still, a couple of firmware updates would push it over the top imho. I don't think anyone's asking for major overhauls but just a few tweaks.
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I understand your side of the argument as well. When the D90, 5D and, now, the GH1 came out us, who are into the video side of things, caught a brief glimpse of video Mecca. They all had pluses and minuses but they were close to what we valued in a camera that could do HD video. The problem being it wasn't meant for us. They all had short comings and we bitched and argued. The people interested in the 'still' side had their own concerns and probably bitched and argued too. As a price point issue I hear ya on it being a little high end for a still camera but that's nothing I know much about. On the video side of the coin I don't think there's one of us interested in this cam who wouldn't pay a bit more to have a few things fixed considering what a value this camera appears to be at the moment. Free updates? Sure, but i'd pay for some if need be but here's the real issue; the video side of this camera has the real potential to genuinely hurt the prosumer side of Panasonic if it was everything it could be. It was joked much earlier that Panny made a mistake in putting this out and maybe there's a little something to that. Because of this internal competition it may be a little while 'til these issues are resolved just to allow the prosumer side to catch up. Just a thought.
 
Barry mentioned the broadcast division is a separate entity but some years ago panasonic put out a camcorder in 2 flavors: broadcast black with pro codec and sixpack silver with less than pro codec so a GH1PRO wouldn't be that much of a stretch.
 
Nighthawk said:
I understand your side of the argument as well. When the D90, 5D and, now, the GH1 came out us, who are into the video side of things, caught a brief glimpse of video Mecca. They all had pluses and minuses but they were close to what we valued in a camera that could do HD video. The problem being it wasn't meant for us. They all had short comings and we bitched and argued. The people interested in the 'still' side had their own concerns and probably bitched and argued too. As a price point issue I hear ya on it being a little high end for a still camera but that's nothing I know much about. On the video side of the coin I don't think there's one of us interested in this cam who wouldn't pay a bit more to have a few things fixed considering what a value this camera appears to be at the moment. Free updates? Sure, but i'd pay for some if need be but here's the real issue; the video side of this camera has the real potential to genuinely hurt the prosumer side of Panasonic if it was everything it could be. It was joked much earlier that Panny made a mistake in putting this out and maybe there's a little something to that. Because of this internal competition it may be a little while 'til these issues are resolved just to allow the prosumer side to catch up. Just a thought.
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yeah it is actually cheap compared to other prosumer camcorders (while still being expensive compared to consumer camcorders). it's actually kind of positioned in a grey area between the two (while its image or at least sensor surpasses a lot of top end prosumer camcorders its compression is very consumer). the thing is I don't even consider 24 mbit/s AVCHD to be prosumer- it's found in a lot of consumer camcorders nowadays. AVC-Intra would be the prosumer version. I am just hoping that we don't have to wind up paying a couple of thousand dollars extra just for 7 more mbit/s in a GH1Pro or wait a year for that slight upgrade in a GH2.
 
squig said:
Barry mentioned the broadcast division is a separate entity but some years ago panasonic put out a camcorder in 2 flavors: broadcast black with pro codec and sixpack silver with less than pro codec so a GH1PRO wouldn't be that much of a stretch.
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Not that long ago. The HSC1U was exactly that. So I'm lobbying heavily to get them to do it again. Fix a few things, charge more if you need to, but add PH mode (24mbps of 1080/24p Native recording, yeah baby!) and some live monitoring, and yeah, that's the ticket...

I know I've been heard. I don't know if they'll do it. I wouldn't wait (I ordered a GH1 already) but hey, if they do it, then that's what ebay's for -- sell the GH1 and upgrade to the GH1Pro or whatever.
 
Barry_Green said:
Not that long ago. The HSC1U was exactly that. So I'm lobbying heavily to get them to do it again. Fix a few things, charge more if you need to, but add PH mode (24mbps of 1080/24p Native recording, yeah baby!) and some live monitoring, and yeah, that's the ticket...

I know I've been heard. I don't know if they'll do it. I wouldn't wait (I ordered a GH1 already) but hey, if they do it, then that's what ebay's for -- sell the GH1 and upgrade to the GH1Pro or whatever.
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Exactly. Squig earlier posted his opinion that this cam is the brains to the lenses, equipment and rigs to make the best possible product we can at the moment. The Gh1 as it sits is just the stepping stone to the next level of 'brains' that will come our way(starting to sound like a zombie script) where we can maintain our investment in equipment etc. which is where the 'real' money lies and move up to the new cam when the time is to our advantage. Squig was spot on with that. I can live with the GH1's perceived limitations 'til there's a new kid on the block. (But I won't say 'no' to some firmware tweaks either)
 
but add PH mode (24mbps of 1080/24p Native recording, yeah baby!) and some live monitoring, and yeah, that's the ticket...
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That would be great. Those two little improvements would make the GH1 a greater camera than it is already. Is that all firmware possible? It could be I suppose. Thanks Barry for your input.
 
Barry_Green said:
Not that long ago. The HSC1U was exactly that. So I'm lobbying heavily to get them to do it again. Fix a few things, charge more if you need to, but add PH mode (24mbps of 1080/24p Native recording, yeah baby!) and some live monitoring, and yeah, that's the ticket...

I know I've been heard. I don't know if they'll do it. I wouldn't wait (I ordered a GH1 already) but hey, if they do it, then that's what ebay's for -- sell the GH1 and upgrade to the GH1Pro or whatever.
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24Mbps would be good but it really should come out of the box with the GH1 or in a free firmware update. If they're going to market a PRO model it should have a better codec. But I'll take whatever I can get thx for the "lobbying" Barry.
 
It won't be that easy to switch back to an APC or full frame sensor cam once you've started collecting exotic lenses for the GH1. I'm already getting 4 different lens mount adapters, probably more.
 
We also want this alising thing in 1920x1080 to be removed
And use of b frames so that videos have better quality at a given bitrate
Sony hx1 uses b frames and is great at a lower bitrate
 
We have to keep the pressure on Panasonic as the Canon folk did with the 5D. They got the full manual control firmware they were pushing for. Panasonic has to upgrade the GH1 to the HDMI live output, 1080p24PN, 720p24 and higher Mbit/s. Are you listening Panasonic? Is your move. You can't let Canon beat you now. Respond to them and give the GH1 a lttle power boost!
 
HDMI live output, 1080p24PN, 720p24 and higher Mbit/s.

these are all plausible but i think the higher bitrate wont help.. they should have another different codec with high mbps
 
yeah the canon firmware update is actually encouraging that maybe panasonic will follow their lead and fix a few of the issues with their camera as well. I'm beginning to wonder though if the lack of b-frames might be holding the codec back more than the bitrate. calculating b-frames is processor dependent though so the venus engine v might not be able to handle it. maximizing the bitrate would help regardless though- and it isn't processor dependent as far as I know. native 24p would be sweet as well, although possibly not as easy to play back directly to a tv (I'm assuming this is why they decided to put it in 60i but who knows).
 
I don't believe that our petitioning got us the manual control on the 5D MKII. Tramm Hudson, his hack and high budget filmmakers and studios did.

It's funny that people are signing a petition for a camera that isn't even on sale yet in most of the world. ;-)

D
 
THe Firmware from CAnon popped into existence around January-February and it was NOT due to Hudson, Filmmakers or anything like that.

It was the fact that Canon users were turning to Nikon to solve their manual control issues. The Firmware Update was apparently slated for June all along, but I didn't believe who had told me.

I also didn't believe him about one other thing he told me... but now I'm wondering what'll happen with this as well, since he spouted an accurate time frame for the MKii firmware update.

Dunno why I didn't believe him, he was one of the first people to visit Canon when the MKii dropped and worked with Vincent directly.

This is not to undermine Hudson's efforts by any means, but to clear up the confusion that anything other than Canon's PR and Business Sense brought about a Firmware update for Manual Controls.
 
Right, but do you believe that a petition actually cause Canon to come up with the update or was there truth that they were planning it all along when the camera was being developed, but they had to leave it out so they could release to battle the D90?

I have heard a lot of different stories and theories. I am in touch with Canon directly lately, perhaps I should glean some info directly from the horse's mouth?

Dan
 
No petition did it at all. It was Canon's choice to stop themselves from selling Nikon glass. LoL.

The D90 has no effect on the MKii, neither does the GH-1 on a consumer level. The MKii's stills blow both away and the price for the Mkii is unheard of for that kind of still performance. Video was just an extra tidbit until they realized the amount of Nikon glass that was being consumed.

Hindsight is 20/20.

Dan, if you talk to some Canon folks... ask them about their next update and how much it's going to cost. =D
 
It is not about a petiton per se. It is about raising our voices and letting the manufacturers know about our concerns and needs. There are real people behind this big corporations not robots churning out cameras. These corporations got big by answering to the needs and wants of their market. Their marketing research efforts are huge. They usually do it quietly but effectively. They also pay attention to the buzz out there. They watch for movements one way or another in their sales patterns and inmediately research why. They also listen to the top movers and shakers of the industry to make slow but positive improvements if it is economically convinient for them. These movers and shakers read and gather info from forums like DVXUser to round up their views. Thats reality. On the other hand the people at Canon knew from day one what the video pros wanted from the video side of the Mark ll. Thats a no brainer. And you can tell by how easy the solution was. A simple firmware and VOILA!, manual controls. By holding back Canon just created a strategy that will sell many more cameras. Marketing genius!
 
Definitely smart to do it on the eve of the GH1 introduction. I think in our little business, there is also the buzz factor that is very real. Look at how quickly the GH1 boards here went berserk. I am noticing how quickly the HVX/HPX/HMC boards have cooled down. It seems like (I could be wrong), that a large amount of this websites discussion is now on the 5D MKII and GH1 boards.

The 5D MKII is an amazing tool as is the GH1. Limited but amazing. RED must be alarmed to see so much of their potential Scarlet low end market evaporating before their eyes. They are going to have to up their game and actually introduce something quickly and ship it or they will miss the boat on the sub $10,000.00 customer. I sense that the steam has basically already leaked out of the 2/3" fixed lens Scarlet with announcements like the GH1 and this manual update for the 5D MKII.

We all win in this competitive environment.

Dan
 
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