Bruce Foreman
Veteran
To my eye (I'm a retired portrait photographer) the skin tones in this look gorgeous, absolutely perfect!
GH5 Paul Leemings New LUT for HLG Footage
- Thread starter TheDingo
- Start date
To my eye (I'm a retired portrait photographer) the skin tones in this look gorgeous, absolutely perfect!
Bassman2003
Veteran
Yes, very nice.
Is there a LUT which converts a 12 stops HLG to 12 stops good looking 8bit 0-255 video? So that we can have the best dynamic range but still quite normal looking 8bit video without dull colors? Is it always necessary to crush and clip the 8bit video for 6 stops? Must the highlights always be clipped and without texture? Must the blacks always be plain black without shades?
I can make good looking 8bit srgb photo from RAW containing 13 stops of dynamic range and with HDR even more. Why cant video look good? Why a sunset in video must have just plain white image in sky? Why must a sun light in face make a white hole in head? No modern display shows only 6 stops. Why must we follow 5-6 stops of rec709 old rule? After all it is just a recommendation. True 6 stops rec709 looks horrible in good display or TV.
I can make good looking 8bit srgb photo from RAW containing 13 stops of dynamic range and with HDR even more. Why cant video look good? Why a sunset in video must have just plain white image in sky? Why must a sun light in face make a white hole in head? No modern display shows only 6 stops. Why must we follow 5-6 stops of rec709 old rule? After all it is just a recommendation. True 6 stops rec709 looks horrible in good display or TV.
That’s what the tonal controls in your NLE’s colour panel are for........
I know a trick how I can use GH5 h.264 4k 30P 8bit with HLG. It may be useful if 10bit is too hard to edit for someone.
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visceralpsyche
Well-known member
The answer to your question is exactly the topic of this thread....
My LUT of course!
There's no harsh clipping of highlights, no clipping deep blacks. Just everything the sensor can produce, brought into the regular Rec709 space.
Cheers,
Paul
The answer to your question is exactly the topic of this thread....
My LUT of course!
There's no harsh clipping of highlights, no clipping deep blacks. Just everything the sensor can produce, brought into the regular Rec709 space.
Cheers,
Paul
Thanks. How can this 12 stops of dynamic range video frame fit in rec709 space because rec709 allows only 6 stops of scene DR? You must clip the highlights if you want to call it rec709 video. When I show these kind of examples experienced film makers say "you cant do it, rec709 cant have more than 6 stops".
IN rec709 space it should look more like this:
GH5 HLG is indeed impressive. I am going to shoot Christmas lights with it. It records colored light dots so much better than normal profiles. It has also less noise in dark scenes.
You are confusing capture DR with display DR. To display a large capture DR on a small display DR you compress not cut the data.
Someone else is confusing captured/displayed DR too because I see all the time videos with harsh clipped/cut DR and when I am trying to make good looking videos I hear complaints it is not possible/allowed with rec709.
If video's are captured with clipped highlights then they will be displayed as clipped highlights. News and broadcast will often be captured in REC709 as there is no time to 'grade' so it's not possible to capture in LOG or another flat profile and so highlights will get clipped. Unless your are shooting straight to broadcast there is no reason to shoot in REC709 and using a camera profile with a larger DR like LOG or HLG and proper exposure and lighting you can preserve the full tonal range of the scene without clipping. HLG will likley in the future replace REC709 for broadcast capture so with a HDR TV you will see less clipping.
Good point. The thing I dont understand is why a good video camera must crush and cut the DR ugly instead of compressing it nicely when using a rec709 profile. Why it is easy to grade good looking rec709 from LOG but the camera cant do it? The original image comes from the same sensor.
In fact it is possible with in-camera rec709. My GH5 videos using Natural profile and idynamic has no clipped highlights and has almost the image like that Pauls example.
jonpais
Well-known member
A couple of screen grabs from today's shoot. HLG, ISO 400, 400Mbps All-Intra. If anyone has 8-bit footage that looks as good as Paul's HLG, I'd sure as heck like to see it! =)
https://jonpais.wordpress.com/2017/11/30/more-sigma-16mm-f-1-4-dc-dn-sample-footage-on-the-way/
https://jonpais.wordpress.com/2017/11/30/more-sigma-16mm-f-1-4-dc-dn-sample-footage-on-the-way/
JonsMovies
Active member
Can anyone clarify what recording mode is best for HLG. Putting aside the All-I 400mbps, is the 150mbps .mov H264 or the 72mbps .mp4 H.265 providing the best results?
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visceralpsyche
Well-known member
I don't get what you are doing here. The shot I showed was the full dynamic range of the sensor shooting HLG, properly compressed into a Rec709 profile space, while retaining all the highlights and shadows of the original 12 stops. Shirozina is right - it's not about cutting off dynamic range, but rather compressing it into the available stops you have in the container format you are outputting in.
The PNG file I posted IS a Rec709 frame, created from HLG, using my LUT.
Cheers,
Paul
visceralpsyche
Well-known member
visceralpsyche
Well-known member
150Mbps MOV or MP4 in 10bit 4:2:2 is perfectly fine
That's what I'm using until I can buy some faster UHS-II cards.You can test All-I with a slower card though, but it will stop after around 23 seconds as the camera's buffer fills up.
Cheers,
Paul
JonsMovies
Active member
Thanks, Paul. We're gearing up for a documentary and looks like we'll be using Leeming LUT with HLG. Very much appreciate you, sir!
I don't get what you are doing here. The shot I showed was the full dynamic range of the sensor shooting HLG, properly compressed into a Rec709 profile space, while retaining all the highlights and shadows of the original 12 stops. Shirozina is right - it's not about cutting off dynamic range, but rather compressing it into the available stops you have in the container format you are outputting in.
The PNG file I posted IS a Rec709 frame, created from HLG, using my LUT.
Cheers,
Paul
Sorry for difficult questions and thoughts. I am just a little confused of the term "dynamic range" in video. If the rec709 allows only 6 stops and we compress 12 stops in rec709 can we say any more that the rec709 file contains 6 stops. When I say I have 11 stops GH5 (Natural rec709) video and I say I can see its highlights and shadows with a bright TV "they" say to me it is impossible or you cant see 11 stops with GH5 Natural profile.
When I watch your compressed 12 stops rec709 and "de-compress" it with a 12 stops TV using extreme settings so that I can see details in higlights and shadows I can actually see those 12 stops with my eyes, almost like HDR. The IQ and 8 bit gradations may not be the smoothest but the image in my eyes has 12 stops even when it went trough rec709 pipeline. I am wondering why many people cant understand this and even gets mad. If I see a 15 stops video shooted with RED or Alexa and compressed to rec709 I can still see those 15 stops but very compressed.
When I shoot a flat video using GH5 cineD profile contrast -5 and idynamic can we any more say it is a rec709 video because it is very flat, almost like a log?
Why so many video shooter makes over contrasty and clipped videos if it is not necessary to cut and clip the dynamic range in rec709 video. Are the cameras so bad or is there a fear to use adjustments in camera? Why video mode always cuts and crushes the DR in all cameras compared to photos? SRGB has about the same color space than rec709 and photos/videos are watched with the same displays? Is the low bitrate in camera compession a reason to cut tones in video?
I think these are relevant questions when we are using HLG and grading for rec709 space. How contrasty the result should be. Is it graded for 30 years old CRT or for modern 12 stops TV.
joe12south
Veteran
Vesku,
I think that possibly confusion stems from the use of the term "stop", which has a specific meaning – a meaning that does not directly correlate to a signal in the absence of an output device. An 8-bit signal could, theoretically, be used to represent 256 stops of dynamic range. You could look at it on any normal REC709 monitor and see each recorded "stop", but you would not be SEEING stops.
You're not really looking at "stops" at that point, because the stop unit defines a doubling of light, and your display doesn't have enough contrast/brightness to display range. Thus the "compression" that you refer to.
Of course cameras are capable of taking whatever stops of DR they can capture and compressing it to an 8-bit or 10-bit signal in virtually unlimited ways. Some of those ways (like Paul's LUT) could be considered quite pleasing. Most consumer camera manufacturers are loath to do so outside of an established standard, though. If for no other reason, as there is more potential of dissatisfaction from less savvy consumers. VLOG-L is one way of doing it, so is HGL.
I think that possibly confusion stems from the use of the term "stop", which has a specific meaning – a meaning that does not directly correlate to a signal in the absence of an output device. An 8-bit signal could, theoretically, be used to represent 256 stops of dynamic range. You could look at it on any normal REC709 monitor and see each recorded "stop", but you would not be SEEING stops.
You're not really looking at "stops" at that point, because the stop unit defines a doubling of light, and your display doesn't have enough contrast/brightness to display range. Thus the "compression" that you refer to.
Of course cameras are capable of taking whatever stops of DR they can capture and compressing it to an 8-bit or 10-bit signal in virtually unlimited ways. Some of those ways (like Paul's LUT) could be considered quite pleasing. Most consumer camera manufacturers are loath to do so outside of an established standard, though. If for no other reason, as there is more potential of dissatisfaction from less savvy consumers. VLOG-L is one way of doing it, so is HGL.
Matt Gottshalk
Resident Preditor
Just ordered the HLG LUT.