Panning 'mud', reasons why and firmware update

Nitsuj said:
I say if you are going to do some crazy whip pans then throw on some dramatic motion blur in post and make it interesting. Turn a negative into a postitive is all I'm saying.
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Yeah, watch out for crazy 'whip pans' like this one: http://www.vimeo.com/5072139 (watch the quicktime)

Sheesh, how many times do we have to say it? Even medium speed pans fall apart when shooting at 1080. The more relevant part of what Capice posted is that there are yet more & more reviews coming out that specifically point out the mud problem. This is a GOOD thing. The more attention put on the problem, the more chance Panasonic will fix it.

[RANT]
This thread is about the mud problem! If you don't think it's a problem, that's cool. Buy a GH1 and go shoot! Meanwhile, the rest of us will continue to make it known that we think this is a problem and that Panasonic should fix it. When they do, I will do two things: shut up about it, and go buy a GH1.

In the meantime, maybe someone should start a "reasons the GH1 is great" thread, and talk about all the good stuff. Heck I'll even pitch in about the great DOF, multiple speeds, decent low light, flip-out LCD, etc. But this thread is about mud, so that's why it continues.
[/RANT]

The preceding rant was not directed at any one person, so please do not take it personally!
 
Out of curiosity, how many of those "ranting" about the "mud" issue have actually personally physically used and tested the camera?

Or is all of this based on some youtube and vimeo "research"?
 
BhambuNath said:
Hello Friends,

This and other threads/footage related to GH1 is pretty informative to know what this camera is capable of(720/50P). I was looking forward to RED Scarlet as my first real camera until I spotted the release of GH1. All I have to say is that MUD or no MUD, JELLO or no JELLO, this is the camera that is totally capable of shooting full length feature once the camera person understands it's limitations and features to use in the controlled atmosphere.

I must say that this camera is for those who are capable of shooting a movie in the controlled environment. Those who are complaining about panning stuff should remember that MJPEG can be used in those panning situations(now please do not complain about the slowdown of audio in that case [when you want to use that footage as 24P or 25P] as you will never use a talking head during the crazy panning scenes).

All I have to say is that I find this camera to be totally capable of shotting a full length movie under controlled circumstances(and you should not forget that all the movies we see are shot under controlled circumstances).

Looking forward to get my hands on it and start shooting my next movie.

Bye.
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Now THAT'S a first post for you. You go BhambuNath.
 
Sheesh, how many times do we have to say it? Even medium speed pans fall apart when shooting at 1080.
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Just like this medium pan that was correctly executed, right?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tHgAu...eature=channel



Tell the person that shot this how mud ruins the shot. We have to learn from what is well done, not from poorly or incorrectly shot stuff. Thats just using common sense.

That is why we have to admire people like Soderbergh and Rodriguez. They don't stop to complain about what's wrong but go out and find solutions. Soderbergh takes an unfinished Red One camera and makes it work despite its problems and Rodriguez takes what he can afford at the time, a 16mm, b&w film, photofloods and makes a name for himself. I bet you either one of these dudes takes a GH1 and makes it fly.
 
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As a newbie I realize this is none of my business but many of you do seem especially sensitive to discussion of problems. If it weren't for the desire of a better mouse trap, would technology ever advance at all? I was recently very moved by a youtube short shot entirely on an iPhone...artists can make art with anything.
 
AS I newbie, ex pro photographer who now needs to do a video, I wonder if the HDMI output bypasses the AVCHD encoding, so that if I use a hardware box, such as made by Maatrox, to capture and transcode to FCP formats could I avoid the mud artifacts? Obviously this would work only in realtime capture to a computer.
 
As a newbie I realize this is none of my business but many of you do seem especially sensitive to discussion of problems.
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It is not the problems, is just that their might be solutions to them before jumping to a final conclusion. People are reporting the "mud" problem but at the same time we see shots like the boat ride that are perfectly executed. So what it tells us is that the person did something right in the setting and execution of the pan. Correct? So thats what we have to concentrate our efforts in, how to copy what that person did correctly and see if we are able to implement it and be successful in avoiding the problem.

AS I newbie, ex pro photographer who now needs to do a video, I wonder if the HDMI output bypasses the AVCHD encoding, so that if I use a hardware box, such as made by Maatrox, to capture and transcode to FCP formats could I avoid the mud artifacts? Obviously this would work only in realtime capture to a computer.
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There is no HDMI live output. Only playback
 
After 83 pages we're well aware of the mud issue. It might be much more effective to send 83 pages worth of complaints here though:

http://www2.panasonic.com/consumer-electronics/support/Contact-Us.2

The photo division doesn't monitor these boards, or at least they haven't made their presence known so far. So you're basically ranting to a hole in the wall. Better to direct it right to the source and let this thread be about workarounds instead of hair pulling.
 
After 83 pages we're well aware of the mud issue.
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But that is the issue. We know that there is a "mud" issue when you yank the pan, when you do a sudden start of the cam, when you whip pan and so forth. But when you pan like the boat pan, (scene full of foliage, designs all over the side of the boat on a bright day), and it looks excellent you become aware that it can be done if you know how to EXECUTE IT PROPERLY. Once again I am sure that well executed crane pans, dolly shots, and such will be fine. Static shots we know are perfect looking. White balance, color, low light footage, absence of noise and jello and much more is fine. If you can't figure out by now that so far the pluses outnumber the minuses like 100 to 1 then you have to really look harder for another camera solution.

BTW: I forgot that you can also choose from 720p60, 720p mpeg and 1080p and also 12mp still photos!
 
philiplipetz said:
AS I newbie, ex pro photographer who now needs to do a video, I wonder if the HDMI output bypasses the AVCHD encoding, so that if I use a hardware box, such as made by Maatrox, to capture and transcode to FCP formats could I avoid the mud artifacts? Obviously this would work only in realtime capture to a computer.
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The fact that posts like these still pop up occasionally indicates that we really need an FAQ, ASAP.
 
Since the codec breakdown ( aka mud ) is an issue of SW than an actual hardware defect/GH1 design most likely; has anyone tried to talk with the right people at Panasonic either in the US or Japan to get answers about whether this is something that can be FW fixed?

Doesn't anyone here have good contacts at Panasonic? Not email, however person to person?


It just feels like this is a Catch 22 with this thread. We know the issue,; now lets confront the ones who have the vaccine....



.
 
PappasArts said:
has anyone tried to talk with the right people at Panasonic either in the US or Japan to get answers about whether this is something that can be FW fixed?

Doesn't anyone here have good contacts at Panasonic? Not email, however person to person?
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Both Phillp Bloom and Barry Green has brought this up with their connections at Panasonic.
 
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Boz said:
Yeah, watch out for crazy 'whip pans' like this one: http://www.vimeo.com/5072139 (watch the quicktime)

Sheesh, how many times do we have to say it? Even medium speed pans fall apart when shooting at 1080.

The preceding rant was not directed at any one person, so please do not take it personally!
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As an amateur filmmaker I can not see how this is even considered a good test. A serious amateur filmmaker would set up a very different test. Like I said before and many others have said, get this thing on a fluid head and plan the shots. This example looks like a home video and not a controlled shot. Every camera has limitations. A good filmmaker works around those and tells a good story. I just don't get why this clip is a good example. I have seen other correctly shot pans with no problems.
 
As an amateur filmmaker I can not see how this is even considered a good test.
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If you analyze the pan you can tell that is not a good pan as compared to the boat pan in the river footage that Pappas posted because he waits until the old man almost reaches the end of the frame the he whips the camera for the pan. The images breaks as it catches up then is good again. He needs to star the pan when the man is more towards the camera then continue slowly as he passes the camera and runs away. That is a more "profesional" way to pan the camera and that is the real test we need to see and determine the "mud" quantity if any in the footage.
 
PappasArts said:
Since the codec breakdown ( aka mud ) is an issue of SW than an actual hardware defect/GH1 design most likely;

.
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the scariest post in this thread, was someone pointing out this "mud"
is warned against IN THE MANUAL.

Sounds like it's hard coded into their plan, and processor abilities.

Makes me think GH-2.
 
John Caballero said:
Just like this medium pan that was correctly executed, right?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tHgAu...eature=channel
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Ok, seriously, look at that clip. That pan is slooow. It literally travels about 45 degrees over 10 seconds (from 0:25 to 0:35). And since we can't really see it in all that much detail (looks like half-res even in HD mode on youtube) it's hard to tell exactly what's going on.

Isaac_Brody said:
After 83 pages we're well aware of the mud issue. It might be much more effective to send 83 pages worth of complaints here though:

http://www2.panasonic.com/consumer-electronics/support/Contact-Us.2

The photo division doesn't monitor these boards, or at least they haven't made their presence known so far. So you're basically ranting to a hole in the wall. Better to direct it right to the source and let this thread be about workarounds instead of hair pulling.
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What a great idea! I'm going to do just that. :) (No, I'm not being sarcastic, I'm going to do exactly that as soon as I hit 'submit reply' here.)

John Caballero said:
But that is the issue. We know that there is a "mud" issue when you yank the pan, when you do a sudden start of the cam, when you whip pan and so forth.
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The pan of the old guy is NOT a whip pan. It is not a yank pan. It's a medium pan. I dare say turn on any TV show or movie and you'll see pans at this speed everywhere.

But when you pan like the boat pan, (scene full of foliage, designs all over the side of the boat on a bright day), and it looks excellent you become aware that it can be done if you know how to EXECUTE IT PROPERLY.
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IE: very slowly. A 45 degree pan over 10 seconds is a slow pan. Even then I think I'm seeing detail loss on the side of the boat. Hard to tell though, for sure.

Once again I am sure that well executed crane pans, dolly shots, and such will be fine. Static shots we know are perfect looking. White balance, color, low light footage, absence of noise and jello and much more is fine. If you can't figure out by now that so far the pluses outnumber the minuses like 100 to 1 then you have to really look harder for another camera solution.
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I agree. And that's what makes the mud problem so frustrating. This camera is perfect for me with that one exception. So that's why I push so hard. We all agree it's a problem. We all agree slow pans, static shots, and shooting in 30P/60P modes are the workaround. But I don't think that should stop anyone who recognizes the problem from making themselves heard over at Panasonic.

Nitsuj said:
As an amateur filmmaker I can not see how this is even considered a good test. A serious amateur filmmaker would set up a very different test. Like I said before and many others have said, get this thing on a fluid head and plan the shots. This example looks like a home video and not a controlled shot. Every camera has limitations. A good filmmaker works around those and tells a good story. I just don't get why this clip is a good example. I have seen other correctly shot pans with no problems.
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Please. Just turn on your TV for 15 minutes, you'll see pans at this speed and faster all the time.

Here's a few quick examples I found:
http://www.hulu.com/watch/48323/legend-of-the-seeker-prophecydestiny#x-0,vepisode,1 - two faster pans in the first minute alone (0:27 & 0:53).

http://www.hulu.com/watch/75964/burn-notice-friends-and-family - at 1:00 and multiple shots 2:35 thru 3:00
 
It clearly states in the user manual that fast movements will lead to picture break-up. So they know it's there by design.
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"Fast Movements" clearly includes footage a man that is running left to right and you wait until he almost reaches the end of the frame to jerk a pan and then follow him.

The pan of the old guy is NOT a whip pan. It is not a yank pan. It's a medium pan. I dare say turn on any TV show or movie and you'll see pans at this speed everywhere.
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Come on. It becomes a whip pan obviously at the 3 secs point when the old man is to reach the end of the frame and the pan is suddenly started. You need to start panning earlier and smoother and see how the codec reacts then.
 
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