Panning 'mud', reasons why and firmware update

Ian-T said:
Strange but I couldn't find any mud in this video.
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Hahaha. I think it's hilarious that people are going to be looking at every GH1 clip with their heads pressed up to their monitors looking for "mud."

We know what the weaknesses are, and I agree with John that this is an art and those who know the limits and how to work around them will produce some fantastic work. For the fence sitters, something better is always just around the corner. If you're willing to wait for a year from now I'm sure the GH2/D90s/5DIII will almost almost meet your expectations. :)
 
j said:
If that's the worst mud you can come up with, then Man - That's some nice looking mud!
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Oh, no no no no no -- I can get astonishingly bad mud with it. Stuff easily on par with Commanderspike's. What I'm saying is: when used *properly* as a *cinema camera*, this is a forced condition of how bad it will be. When used improperly, oh it's a million times worse.

But even then, my case was about forcing it to be bad. As Martti said, normally you'd have a 3-stop ND filter on there (or more), which would lower the overall amount of crisp detail in the background and make the job much easier on the codec... and you'd be shooting at a motion-blur-inducing 1/50th instead of my hyper-sharp 1/800, which will also make the job easier on the codec... and you'd be following a subject, so nobody would be looking at the background anyway... and under those shooting conditions (which would amount to proper cinema style shooting) no rational person would likely see any mud.

There is nothing in this price range that competes. Nothing. (If you are looking for large sensor and 24p)
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That's my contention. It's not perfect, there are issues, but there's nothing else within a hundred miles of it, so -- how can we make it work? That's the quest. And I think it's likely perfectly workable. Likely enough that I think we're gonna try soon.
 
Isaac_Brody said:
Hahaha. I think it's hilarious that people are going to be looking at every GH1 clip with their heads pressed up to their monitors looking for "mud."

:)
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LOL..you guys made me do it.

I'm glad you said that cause right about now I'm feeling real stupid. I really was pressing my face up againts the monitor..LoL. I guess I really understand the term "pixel peeping" now.

It's like the HV20's jello....if folks didn't make such a big deal about it back in the day I don't think I would have noticed it right away (that is until I hopped on a helicopter ride or something).
 
I do think how you watch a movie has a great impact on the experience. A lot of movies are made with the theatre experience in mind. I think the camera has a lot to do with it but so does the environment you are in when you watch it. However that is just part of it. Sound, picture, environment, story, performance, and production are all combined as one experience.

With all that being said people think how people are actually judging this camera? What are you watching it on? It can't be judged through web compression or even watching it on your PC monitor. Take something shot really well and put it on Blue-Ray plastic, slide into a PS3 and view it on the biggest HD TV you can find. Turn off the lights, tweak the Dolby Digital sound system, pop some popcorn... and I bet your experience will be much different then what you just watched on vimeo or you PC screaming to play the AVCHD file.

I think David Lynch said it best...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wKiIroiCvZ0

It all must be put into perspective and I think this cam rawks. :beer:
 
You don't have to really be looking for it to notice the problem.

It's not like it's a small issue.

I and others went looking for it, trying to induce it with quick swooping pans on detailed scenes for a reason... to figure out why it occurs, and how to avoid it. This bit isn't art, it's a science.

I totally agree that getting GOOD footage from the GH1 is an art... all types of cinematography is.

That's what we all intend to do... figure out it's limitations, work around them and expertly, and produce something artistically decent.
 
commanderspike said:
I and others went looking for it, trying to induce it with quick swooping pans on detailed scenes for a reason... to figure out why it occurs, and how to avoid it. This bit isn't art, it's a science
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Therein lies the problem, don't do quick swooping pans in 1080 mode. As Barry already mentioned, when shooting like it's a "cinema camera" you can avoid killing the codec.

I agree it's not a small issue, and I hope Panasonic is listening and working to improve the codec implementation and/or add MJPEG modes at 1080 and 720 at 24P native with a higher bitrate.
 
I totally agree Issac.

Fast pans are not particularly my thing, I can't see it affect me and obstruct me when trying to be creative, but it's an avenue that's been cut off... no fast or indeed medium speed panning most of the time in 1080p mode, it's as simple as that! Until the fix... if there is one.

The problem does not lie in testing, however. Testing is meant to produce the problem.

That is to say I was trying to **** it up.

Highlighting the problem to it's extreme has hopefully alerted Panasonic to the fact it exists, if (unbelievably) they didn't already know. I am sure they will make the GH1's full HD mode more robust in the future.
 
commanderspike said:
I totally agree Issac.

Fast pans are not particularly my thing, I can't see it affect me and obstruct me when trying to be creative, but it's an avenue that's been cut off... no fast or indeed medium speed panning most of the time in 1080p mode, it's as simple as that! Until the fix... if there is one.

The problem does not lie in testing, however. Testing is meant to produce the problem.

That is to say I was trying to poo poo it up.

Highlighting the problem to it's extreme has hopefully alerted Panasonic to the fact it exists, if (unbelievably) they didn't already know. I am sure they will make the GH1's full HD mode more robust in the future.
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Commander, you has a new mission. Report for doody...err.. duty.. here: http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=173260
 
Barry_Green said:
If that's the case, then I must have misunderstood
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You most certainly have Sir.

Hasn't been the first time; and I'm damn sure it won't be the last..........


Your going to see it your way. I'm going to see it my way. Your argument stands along side a techno measurebating head type ( left brain dominant ); where is I approach from an artistic side who has technical prowess abilities. So neither one of us are going to complety see each others POV. I'm sorry you can't see it. There is nothing I can do for you; to help you see the center point of this discussion.

I suggest Barry, You go listen to your CD's of the Back Street Boy's in glorious Hi-fidelity; while I will be content with appreciating an old Rolling Stones tune playing through a tin can speaker :-)



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commanderspike;1654460=I am sure they will make the GH1's full HD mode more robust in the future.[/QUOTE said:
For sure. The GH1 is V.1 and it does so much. I can only imagine that the GH2 will really become refined to a much sharper point..


.
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I've gone through the ups and downs of this thread, at times keeping the faith with the camera, at other times deciding that I'll stay with my HV20 after all because of the 1080 codec issue. I've probably changed my mind as often as squig, but only because, like squig, I just want the best for this summer's little film (which, as usual, is totally funded from whatever's left over from real life). Finally, I'm back onboard with the GH1: I've bought some adapters to use my motley colection of still camera lenses (and some c-mount lenses which were gathering dust), because after several pages of being scared off the camera, I think what you guys (Kholi, Barry, Illya) are saying is: keep it at 1/60th (1/50th for PAL), keep it steady, ease it into the pans, and in most cases you'll be all right. I'd like to know the finer points (is there an ideal ISO setting for this camera?), noise reduction (presumably we should turn everything like that and sharpening off?) and start enjoying the good things (for me: using manual prime lenses and manual exposure).

Kholi -- if you were shooting material for your own purposes with the GH1, would you choose 720p60 or 1080p24?
 
TrueIndigo said:
Kholi -- if you were shooting material for your own purposes with the GH1, would you choose 720p60 or 1080p24?
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Easy. 1080/24. And when I absolutely have to 720/60 uprezzed to 1080/24.

It'd be nice to have a better 1080/24 but there're way too many positive about the GH-1 to worry about it. Maybe we'll get a 1080/24P MJPEG update? That'd seal it right there.

I'm having issues adjusting to the MKii, so regardless of it's better/stout 1080 I just prefer the GH-1 as a whole.
 
Thanks mate; there still seems to be some mysteries about this camera yet to be confirmed for manual operation -- looking forward to reading your conclusions...
 
{{{I think what you guys (Kholi, Barry, Illya) are saying is: keep it at 1/60th (1/50th for PAL), keep it steady, ease it into the pans, and in most cases you'll be all right}}}



You know what's funny....

You can't move the GH1 to much cause you'll break the codec. On the 5D you can't move the camera to much cause you introduce skew artifacts....

Either way you can't move these cameras without some issue......LOL


Pick your poison..



..
 
PappasArts said:
{{{I think what you guys (Kholi, Barry, Illya) are saying is: keep it at 1/60th (1/50th for PAL), keep it steady, ease it into the pans, and in most cases you'll be all right}}}



You know what's funny....

You can't move the GH1 to much cause you'll break the codec. On the 5D you can't move the camera to much cause you introduce skew artifacts....

Either way you can't move these cameras without some issue......LOL


Pick your poison..



..
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Now THAT is hilarious. It's pretty true. If you're not careful when moving either you'll fall victim to SOME sort of image anomaly.
 
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