Panning 'mud', reasons why and firmware update

[ydgmdlu]

I wonder if this problem is related to the pseudo 24P that the NTSC GH1 is creating? Perhaps the PAL GH1 doesn't suffer from this due to not having to create fake frames via an odd numbered equation (60/24)...

No, at least one PAL GH1 owner is reporting the same thing. The reason that the "mud" happens is because the GH1 has a poor implementation of an interframe codec. Only interframe codecs have "mud."

And the 24p is not "pseudo" either.

 

[John Caballero]

If I may ask, when you say whip panning, do you mean panning at a ultra high speed?

The fastest you do it the more it brakes. It has problems catching up with the motion. There is no final concensus yet on how slow you should go or up to what certain speed its ok. There are conflicting reports but as soon as more people start getting the cameras and testing for tresholds we won't be certain for sure. Its all in the learning process. Enjoy the journey, although it might be a bumpy one!

 

[Kholi]

All I know is that I'm not as happy with the MKii as I am the GH-1. And I'm sad that this little bad-ass in the center has found a new home.

Here's the pros and cons list again:


GH-1

Pros:

- 1080/24P, 720/60P, 720/30P
* Slow Mo in Post is easier, direct
* 720/60P is robust
* MJPEG Option for instant access
- PAL Support
- 4/3" Sensor
* Vast coverage of lenses in every brand including Cinema Spec
* Easy Focus Pulling, Mark Hitting
- Small and Lightweight: Great for small rigs and setups
- Kit lens: 14-140 w/Silent Focus and OIS
* Automatic Features (great for doc, run-n-gun)
- Flip Out Rotatable LCD (great for run-n-gun)
- IN-Camera Crop Options
- Jello Control in Both 1080 and 720 controlled extremely well.
- Excellent Battery Consumption
* 2 Hours for recording.
* 1 Hour Charge Time for batteries
- No Overheating or intense heat output
- Lengthy Recording Times in all modes. Great for Events, etc.
- Quite cheap for the benefits that come with it.
* MSR: 1500.00 w/Kit Lens

Cons:

- 1080/24P not at its best -- enough of an image hit to warrant caution
* Contained in 60i which needs Pulldown
* Artifacts introduced due to 1080/24P Implementation
- Lowlight performance not as great as MKii
- Not exactly S35mm FOV
- No Video Out Monitoring during recording built-in
- No Audio Metering (dunno if this is really a con, but sure)
- Weak Still Capabilities on a Consumer level
- Aliasing issues in 1080P, 720P TBD but looks better. Needs workarounds


Canon 5D MKii

Pros

- Full frame sensor
* Photographic Full Frame FOV and DOF
* Better low light performance
* High dynamic range
* Live HDMI out while recording
- Robust 1080 Compression. Still worthy video in fact.
- Incredible still images for the money
- Hudson's Participation in the 5D Free Program
* Gui represented Audio Levels
* Adjustable Audio gain
* On screen Zebras for Highlight pretection
* Crop Marks on Screen for Video stay visible
- Live Video out through HDMI or Composite port during recording

Cons

- 30P limitation. No options in-camera to record higher or lower
- Full Frame DOF will cause problems with focusing in Run-N-Gun
- Full Frame limits lens choices, although great glass available that covers it.
- Larger Body than competitors
- No Crop Options at the time, need to crop in post if you want such a thing.
- Battery Drains quickly when Live View is activated
- No Flip-Out LCD. Locked into EVF or Stationary LCD on back.
- Hot Pixels prone to appearing during extended use
- Heats Up: affects not known, outside of hot pixels.
- Aliasing issues need workarounds
- Jello more prevalent than GH-1, but much better than D90
- Price in comparison to competitors
* 2600 + Tax (2800+ in CA) with no kit lens

And similarities

GH-1 and MKii Similarities-

- The Post Workflow requires just as much attention on both sides.
* the MKii at the moment only shoots 30P. Lets be real, most of us want 24p. If you want that then you must go through a process. You can create a droplet for this, but it'll be done. You also have to convert to something you can edit.
* the GH-1 needs a friggin' pulldown. You know the drill. I mean, you get 24P, but you still have to convert/log and transfer. NeoScene makes this a one-step process along with other methods that Isaac Brody has found.

- No Real Onboard Audio
* Metering or not, on boad audio is not here. Both need dual systems which adds to the overall cost of production. even if that cost is low, it's still a cost.

- Both need External Filters
* Slice it how you will. A [good] ND Filter Kit, if not two, will be needed. Puredrifting (Dan) purchased the awesome Singh Ray, a variable ND filter. It also cost about 300+ Retail. I have a set of Hoya ND's that ran me 150.00. You'll also want to have a Polarizer, etc. You overlook this and you'll be wondering why everyone else's footage destroys yours. You must adopt a new kind of mentality: the cinema mentality.

- Support Gear
* We all must find a way to deal with these things. Zacuto, Cinevate, Redrock have all put stuff together but does it work right? This is going to take some getting used to. In exchange for the small size, we now need to find out how to stabilize the cameras in a manner that's cost effective and matches the cost of the camera itself. Did you really gain anything if you have to use a full steadicam rig to get proper motion out of them? No.

- CMOS technology
* no matter which one exhibits the better jello handling, they both have to be tailored to their CMOS limitations. Until someone drops a Global Shutter, they're BOTH inferior to a Global Shutter CCD sensor when dealing with motion, flashes, etc.

- Excellent Storage Capacity
* Beats p2 and SxS cards by a mile, my friends. They both have this advantage, without a doubt.

- Incredible Dynamic Range over Prosumer Video Camera Offerings
* Need I say more? Jack Daniel Stanley made the best point of any posted: they're BOTH better than rocking a 35mm Adapter as far as Dynamic Range and Highlight Handling goes.

- Still Camera Double
* No matter which is better, you still get great stills for the price of both.

- Resale Value
* Welcome to the consumer market. You can keep your glass and sell the camera body when the next one comes up. The ballgame is different here. There are WAY more consumers to sell your gear too than there are Prosumers. Get your use out of it, take care of your gear and sell later to get the next best thing. This is one huge reason why the which-is-better-debates are irrelevant. We will all be better in a year or two.


--- At the end of the day, now having this GH-1 back in my hands... I'm really sorry but the overall winner is the GH-1. I'm not gonna soapbox, but I'm really sad to see it leave and can't wait to get my two US bodies in.

 

[sunburst]

overall winner is the GH-1.

Kholi, thanks for your time, and expertise, in providing this comparison.

I was certainly looking forward to a gh1. It looks like the most FUN camera,
and versatile. The canon though, has the mind blowing resolution and codec.

For most the gh1 looks like the better choice. I can't afford both.

In my case, I will be shooting over 40 percent GREEN screen. Also I am not
interested in 720p. 1080 only. doesnt that put the gh1 out of the equation
for me?

I don't know what to do, other than wait for a canon with 24p, stock issue, or hope something new hits the market. ????

what do you think?

thanks

 

[timbook2]

This sounds like a reasonable approach; if it truly doesn't have B frames, then it's not as efficient as it could otherwise be, and the only fix for that is more bandwidth. However, the GH1, being an AVCHD device, will be limited to a max of 24mbps if they were to attempt to throw bandwidth at it to reduce the compression errors.

Frankly I think the best solution would be to use the HMC150 chips. That would give them more bandwidth, B frames, and pN mode (and pN is extremely easier to compress than interlaced 2:3 pulldown footage).

I would not expect changes on the existing model, but I have hopes that they could be applied to a customized broadcast version.

and at that point HEAt would enter the stage again....just like with the MKII, which heats up too much, the RED which heats up...etc....

there are compromises to be made and the GH1 is not even prosumer...
But maybe the GH2 will be better....til then I hope to make some money with mine.

 

[PappasArts]

Not sure, but I'm getting similar streaking at low ISOs with the MKii. I think it's just a matter of finding out which ISOs to use and which ones to avoid.

Never thought I'd see the weirdness with the Canon but sure enough is there. These two are a lot alike.

I have seen this with a lot of CMOS based systems...




.

 

[Martti Ekstrand]

Kholi, thanks for your time, and expertise, in providing this comparison.

Seconded, that was a very concise write-up Kholi, good job!

In my case, I will be shooting over 40 percent GREEN screen. Also I am not
interested in 720p. 1080 only. doesnt that put the gh1 out of the equation
for me?

For green screen I'd use a video cam with a 1080 4:2:2 live signal out and either capture uncompressed straight to a computer or with a external recorder like AJA's new Ki Pro. GH1 has a 4:2:0 colour signal which is not very suitable for green screen work, especially after been pressed through AVCHD or Mjpeg compression. Also when shooting green screen you do want a deeper DoF so using a camera with smaller sensor makes more sense.

 

[Barry_Green]

In my case, I will be shooting over 40 percent GREEN screen. Also I am not
interested in 720p. 1080 only. doesnt that put the gh1 out of the equation
for me?

Why? What kind of greenscreen? It's usually locked-down shots, right?

Although the 4:2:0 color sampling is not ideal for greenscreening...

 

[Orchidthief]

Seconded, that was a very concise write-up Kholi, good job!

For green screen I'd use a video cam with a 1080 4:2:2 live signal out and either capture uncompressed straight to a computer or with a external recorder like AJA's new Ki Pro. GH1 has a 4:2:0 colour signal which is not very suitable for green screen work, especially after been pressed through AVCHD or Mjpeg compression. Also when shooting green screen you do want a deeper DoF so using a camera with smaller sensor makes more sense.

Such a bummer because I plan on green screening as well. Kholi, since you have first hand experience with the cam, do you think it'll hold up alright for that purpose?

 

[squig]

Strange but I couldn't find any mud in this video.

I did there's a spot where she lunges her head forward I froze it there and her head was just a big white blob no detail left at all. anywhere there is movement the codec just falls apart and there is no detail left where the movement is.

 

[Kholi]

I'm not sure how it'll hold up. Barry's got a point, most green screen stuff is locked down. That'll be a test for sure, to see how well it keys.

I wouldn't really use anything sub RED, personally, for chroma work like that, though. That's one place RED can keep its victory. 4K for VFX and such is great.

The EX-1 footage keys pretty well, it's 4:2:0. Shot for shot, EX-1 and GH-1 next to each other with no camera movement, then yeah I bet you could key the GH-1 footage just as well as you could key EX-1 footage.

If you're going to be doing movement, tracking, etc I'd suggest finding an alternative for these shots. I definitely would NOT try to do that stuff with an EX-1. I'd go for a RED rental or an HVX200A.

 

[Nitsuj]

Such a bummer because I plan on green screening as well. Kholi, since you have first hand experience with the cam, do you think it'll hold up alright for that purpose?

Make sure your lighting is perfect everytime all the time. You have to be careful what clothing is worn. You have to expect to do a lot of post work and you have to expect you might be reshooting or scrapping shots completely. It can work... it's just a pain in the ass. I have done it many times on low end cameras. It's going to be a lot of trial and error really.

 

[squig]

There is no need for a sticky. Like Barry Green said earlier on this thread: use it like a cinema camera and pan accordingly on 1080p. No crazy whip panning should be applied. I don't know what part of that people don't understand. On the other hand like Barry said, if you have a creative need to do that kind of panning the GH1 is not the camera for you.

Only problem is it's not just the camera movement that creates mud. subject movement does it too to a lesser extent. So if you can get your actors to stand still for the duration of your film you'll be fine. I know I'm detecting this by freezing frames but it's happening to every frame where there is movement and I value the integrity of my frames.

 

[sunburst]

For green screen I'd use a video cam with a 1080 4:2:2 live signal out and either capture uncompressed straight to a computer or with a external recorder like AJA's new Ki Pro. GH1 has a 4:2:0 colour signal which is not very suitable for green screen work, especially after been pressed through AVCHD or Mjpeg compression. Also when shooting green screen you do want a deeper DoF so using a camera with smaller sensor makes more sense.

Hi Martti Ekstrand,

Ha, doesnt that bring me back to my HV20?

I have the blackmagic intensity card, ready to try that direct to laptop. However, big delays in compatibility with adobe CS4 have kept my from trying this.

Why? What kind of greenscreen? It's usually locked-down shots, right?

Although the 4:2:0 color sampling is not ideal for greenscreening...

Hi Barry,

any type of green screen I can pull off.

I've done at least 4 shoots in the last two months. All with the stock HV20. although I havent yet keyed them, due to set up problems. so not sure what I will get.

I've read encouraging posts about greenscreen with the MK2. reports say way
better than HDV. { using the vanilla MK2 } Also they say the right lens handles the DOF issue.

also doesnt it have HDMI out, if needed to go to the intensity?


Not all my work will be green screen. I'm hoping for a cam that can pull off
normal shots too. good MOTION and 24p a must!

 

[Orchidthief]

Thanks for the input on that fellas. If I do carry through with green screen stuff it's mainly gonna be locked off shots anyway, so that may work.

Most of my stuff is going to be locked off period, so I'm even more excited. Would love to try to shoot a mini-documentary with this thing.

 

[squig]

Not sure, but I'm getting similar streaking at low ISOs with the MKii. I think it's just a matter of finding out which ISOs to use and which ones to avoid.

Never thought I'd see the weirdness with the Canon but sure enough is there. These two are a lot alike.

well they are both H.264 based codecs

 

[Kholi]

well they are both H.264 based codecs

I don't think it's the compression. Looks like how it feeds the video or acquires it more so than anything.

Also, it has to do with the ISO as far as these two cameras are concerned. I notice it much more in some footage than others, the ISO setting is the culprit.

Now I know and Now I cans avoid.

 

[squig]

Kholi have you shot much mjpeg stuff? I was content with the resolution from you supersoaker shots. It was like a "clean" D90. I was just about to get the MKII until I noticed the codec going to **** with subject movement. I think I'm gonna stick with mjpeg for the film. I'm thinking Pentax K-7 and GH1 and 30-24p in post but hopefully there will be native 24p by then. These long GOP implementations are all flawed at these bit-rates. Maybe at 100Mbps they can handle camera and subject movement but not at 17Mbps.

 

[codeloss]

squig, have you looked at any 5D source footage? I think the codec holds up a bit better than you're giving it credit for.

 

[Kholi]

Kholi have you shot much mjpeg stuff? I was content with the resolution from you supersoaker shots. It was like a "clean" D90. I was just about to get the MKII until I noticed the codec going to shi* with subject movement. I think I'm gonna stick with mjpeg for the film. I'm thinking Pentax K-7 and GH1 and 30-24p in post but hopefully there will be native 24p by then. These long GOP implementations are all flawed at these bit-rates. Maybe at 100Mbps they can handle camera and subject movement but not at 17Mbps.

Nah, not much MJPEG stuff but revisiting that Supersoaker example footage I wish I had! I should have been testing MUCH more but alas, hindsigh is always 20/20.

Also, be careful with the MKii footage you're watching. I have yet to see any break-up in raw material from the MKii. I know it's there, but I can't spot it, not even in a Video of the GF playing Wii Active. =P

I will give the MKii its due on image quality: its outstanding and I can see why people are gravitating toward it like flys on poopish. Can't wait for 24P m'self.