Panning 'mud', reasons why and firmware update

Hmmm... this is a bit frustrating. Yeah, all cameras have limitations. I have an HV20 - it may be the king of camera with limitations. Which is why the GH1 is so special. It has a LOT going for it. And if it had just a LITTLE more (why the artificial cap at 17mbs when it's handicapping the image so much?), it would be down right perfect (for me). I'm the one that has been saying over and over that I would be happy with at 720-24P mode. I would probably never shoot 1080 at that point. I'd (re)order one today. But when I hear comments like 'just use an HVX200' for the shakey cam bits, I know we're in two different worlds. Oh well, I've made my point, and I thank those who have patiently listened and commented. In the end it is what it is. For me it's not good enough (yet), but I'm sure there's something better right around the corner.
 
Ian-T said:
Yes I've seen that also. I'm suprised no one else has not mentioned that until now. Like you said though, it is not nearly as bad.
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It's impossible to read it all on an active site like DVXuser, and ingest and discern fact from fiction and speculation. A lot of stuff get's said. I stand by my assertion back on 05-06-2009 when I wrote here:

http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showpost.php?p=1629923&postcount=32

"Yes, the same artifacts are present in the Countryside 720 just as in the 1080 version. In case anyone has any doubt, pause when bright/contrasty foliage passes close to the cabin window, and step through frame by frame- same codec faults."

The 720p mode is just as breakable, but you get the benefit of 60 samples per second rather than 24; plus in 24 any "broken" frames get repeated with the pulldown so they hang on the screen in view longer, thus giving the appearance of being a less robust method of shooting.

I'd say truly if you are going to end up in 24p, it's a toss up what's going to give you a better image when shooting normally. more resolution in one format, more samples in the other- either way you have to do 'something' in post to process your images to get to a true 24p.


I.

Illya Friedman
Hot Rod Cameras
 
I guess it comes down to this: you've got four video professionals (me, Illya, Kholi, and Hunter) all saying that if you use the 24p mode as intended, it's fine.
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And that is what it comes down to.

2. It may 'only' be $1500 to you. But not everyone has the money buy a Red, 2 GH1s, an HVX200, and a 5Dii. (You're a pro, I get that, so your cameras are part of your income.) For some of us, we can only afford one camera every few years, and $1500 is a significant chunk of change. So obviously, we'd like the best that we can get within our means.
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If anybody is purchasing a fairly expensive camera to use it as a hobby or for capturing family memories then it might be a high ticket purchase, but if you are buying a $1500 motion capture camera that can produce a very good image under carefully controlled cirscumstances and make you the money back in say, one dirt cheap music video, then its a bargain. If it is a tool for your work is an investment if it is anything else is a luxury.
 
superzero said:
However, you must understand how frustrating it is that we are so close to having a perfect DSLR and yet the manufacturers keep screwing it up.
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Do they? Or are they building in what they can, at the given price point?

I can only hope that Nikon, who have no video division to protect, will finally release a product that combines the video friendly features of the GH-1 with the image quality and low light sensitivity of the 5D.
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And yet we have the jello-ridden D90 with its absurdly underpowered codec. Is that not a case of Nikon "screwing it up"?

I would argue that no, it is not. It's what they could make at that under-$1000 price tag.

What I don't understand is: why is it that people are perfectly willing to understand that an octo-core Mac Pro costs $3300, and has more performance than the $599 Mac Mini, and they're okay with that. But when a video camera that costs $1500 doesn't perform to the same level as a $10,000 camera, all of a sudden it's the "manufacturers purposely crippling the unit to protect their higher end"?

Is Apple purposely crippling the Mac Mini to protect the Mac Pro?

Is Hyundai purposely crippling the $10,000 Accent so as to protect the $32,000 Genesis?

Or is it a case of "man, I sure wish I could afford that Mac Pro, but I've got a Mac Mini wallet, and look how happy I am that for $599 I get a dual-core Intel Mac that runs circles around the older G5."

Anyway, it is what it is, and it costs what it costs, and it performs really well as long as you don't exceed its limitations. I predict you're going to see some *startling* footage come out of the GH1 in the next few months.
 
I predict you're going to see some *startling* footage come out of the GH1 in the next few months.
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But only by the ones who have what it takes. And again, that will be the challenge: show me how good you are using this little camera. Like Kholi said, it has so many pluses to it. And for $1500? I can't wait to get mine.
 
To all Canadians who are on the pre-order list ahead of me; Please do not buy this camera. It's bad. To the people behind me on the list; Your welcome and no cutting in.

Much has been stated ad nauseam about the pluses and minuses of the Gh1 and it comes down to what's right for you. The price vs limitation factor has to ultimately boil down to personal choice. Choose wisely, grasshopper.
 
The mud is not a limitation of the GH1 due to $1500 "low" price,

its simply a camera flaw, an error, a panasonic bug,

if other video cams, even the cheap ones, using 17mbps AVCHD codecs can manage fast panings corretly, giving not so good blur but blur anyway, its ridiculous that the $1500 GH1 cannot, anyway we don't know if the codec is the problem.

Important: the mud apears when paning, but ALSO sometimes when not paning, I've posted caps when mud appears when camera is only focusing.


could anyone do some testing using MJPEG mode to see if the mud appear? this could discharge the AVCHD compression...
 
Barry_Green said:
Do they? Or are they building in what they can, at the given price point?


What I don't understand is: why is it that people are perfectly willing to understand that an octo-core Mac Pro costs $3300, and has more performance than the $599 Mac Mini, and they're okay with that. But when a video camera that costs $1500 doesn't perform to the same level as a $10,000 camera, all of a sudden it's the "manufacturers purposely crippling the unit to protect their higher end"?
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The problem with your arguments is that my sub- $200 Flip Mino HD has a better looking codec than the GH1's 1080 codec. I'm not kidding, I pull this thing out of my pocket and shoot REALLY good 720p. I know it's 720 vs 1080, but for $200? The Sony webbie is 1080p and looks great. So you can't say "Well, for $1500 you just can't get any better!" because that's absurd when there are plenty of pocket cameras out there with much better looking codecs.

The 1080p on the GH1 is a joke. Saying "you can use it if done correctly" is ridiculous- watch anything anywhere and you will see innumerable instances where the GH1's codec would completely fall apart. So yes, you can shoot super shallow DOF talking heads. Terrific- if that's all you shoot.

Before everybody starts freaking out about "but the flip doesn't have a giant sensor! and OIS and low light blah blah.." please realize I'm not talking about anything other than the QUALITY of the codec.

Look up the flip hd on vimeo, or the sony webbie, or the sanyo xacti. If these guys can do it at those ridiculously low price points, what's panny's problem?
 
DrBlaz said:
its simply a camera flaw, an error, a panasonic bug,

if other video cams, even the cheap ones, using 17mbps AVCHD codecs can manage fast panings corretly, giving not so good blur but blur anyway, its ridiculous that the $1500 GH1 cannot, anyway we don't know if the codec is the problem.
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Uh, none of these cams is nearly as sharp nor is typically shot with such high shutter speeds as people are using outside with the GH1. Until someone shoots a side by side test (and the GH1 will have to be softened alot with filter and/or cam setting as it's much sharper than my HV30), we have no idea if this is valid.
 
shoqman said:
Look up the flip hd on vimeo, or the sony webbie, or the sanyo xacti. If these guys can do it at those ridiculously low price points, what's panny's problem?
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There is no good argument when you point that out in that context. Simply, Panasonic's choice to do so; well it was a FUBAR in some eye's.......


.
 
The artefact problem is in reality probably far more of a problem for Panasonic than it is for most of us, who are generally speaking used to shooting with a variety of cameras in a variety of situations. Contrary to what some have said, Panasonic haven't failed at the last hurdle in producing the perfect low budget camera for a handful of indy shooters around the world. Instead they've been the first to put a high quality point and shoot video camera into the body of a compact SLR, which most people will use to shoot home movies. The problem, it's this exact group of shooters who are going to be whipping and zooming the camera all over the place, if you know what I mean :Drogar-Dum(DBG):

So from this point of view, I think if this problem really is that evident when more cameras start shipping, then Panasonic will have to respond fairly quickly ( if they can ) to fix the problem, unless they want these images plaguing consumer reviews of the new HD video camera.

That aside, I can't wait to start shooting with the camera, even if I have to work around some aspects of shooting.
 
The problem with your arguments is that my sub- $200 Flip Mino HD has a better looking codec than the GH1's 1080 codec. I'm not kidding, I pull this thing out of my pocket and shoot REALLY good 720p.
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This is just hilarious. Thats exactly the point. If you are very happy with the quality of your camera and it is producing the image quality you are looking for by no means spend $1500 on a GH1 because you are not going to be happy. It is great that you can shoot music videos, commercials, interviews, etc. with that little marvel. I am sure the shallow DOF and interchangeable lens option works wonders. And most importantly free of all artifacts and such as you do that beautiful whip pan.
 
DrBlaz said:
Important: the mud apears when paning, but ALSO sometimes when not paning, I've posted caps when mud appears when camera is only focusing.
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I would think that fast, drastic changes in focus, whether they're auto or manual would be very similar to rapid pans from the point of view of the codec. In both situations you're talking about lots of pixels suddenly changing all at once.
 
Ian-T said:
LOl.. No, what was known from the beginning was this issue in 1080/24p. But it was not really stressed on being an issue in 60/720p (at least I didn't pick up on that). for me at least, it has always been a 24p issue.
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But that is what this whole discussion has been about. It is about 1080p breakdowns and I thought this had already been a known subject. It's already been discussed that 720 is not getting the same results. It's like people look at a muddy picture and freak the hell out but not taking into account that this has already been a known thingamajigger.But honestly this isn't the point I have been getting at... the point is this.


EVERYBODY IN HERE! EVERY SINGLE PERSON! WATCH THIS! I DID A SIMPLE SEARCH AND JUST FOUND THIS.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZrDxe9gK8Gk

Now there is no excuse. Everybody can be creative with the GH1 no matter what it's little problems are.

Now read this...
http://www.reuters.com/article/ente...80424?feedType=RSS&feedName=entertainmentNews

...and be inspired. It's great to have knowledge of what this camera can and can't do but what is even better is what it actually has the potential TO do. I'm optimistic so sue me. ... And... discuss... :Drogar-Evil(DBG):
 
John Caballero said:
This is just hilarious. Thats exactly the point. If you are very happy with the quality of your camera and it is producing the image quality you are looking for by no means spend $1500 on a GH1 because you are not going to be happy. It is great that you can shoot music videos, commercials, interviews, etc. with that little marvel. I am sure the shallow DOF and interchangeable lens option works wonders. And most importantly free of all artifacts and such as you do that beautiful whip pan.
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Dude, I have the Flip so that I can have it with me everywhere. I own 5 cameras including an XH-A1, so don't talk down to me like I'm the idiot consumer that just wants to shoot random crap in the yard. You'd be surprised what I've done professionally.

I am excited by this camera because I could take it instead of my XH-A1 plus RedRock getup, but the codec fails to get me the same image, and there's a lot of Panny butt kissing going on saying that it's just not possible for them to get a better image. I think that's ridiculous, and the Flip HD is a great example of why.
 
Don't waste your time, Nitsuj. There are plenty of people that already know what's up, the others can just keep waiting and complaining.

If THE SIGNAL (XL-H1 with 35mm Adapter - 60K Budget and sold for 1.5 Million) can't inspire someone, or even 28 Days Later (Canon XL-S1 with NO 35mm Adapter, Mini DV, etc) then there's no helping people.

Just let them continue to find something wrong and take advantage of their waylay.
 
Kholi said:
Don't waste your time, Nitsuj. There are plenty of people that already know what's up, the others can just keep waiting and complaining.

If THE SIGNAL (XL-H1 with 35mm Adapter - 60K Budget and sold for 1.5 Million) can't inspire someone, or even 28 Days Later (Canon XL-S1 with NO 35mm Adapter, Mini DV, etc) then there's no helping people.

Just let them continue to find something wrong and take advantage of their waylay.
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Yep I guess you are right. It's like I always say... there are talkers and there are doers and like my little green friend always said... "Do or do not, there is no try."
 
Thanks Nitsuj...now in addition to the trials of a totally frustrating day, I have been brought to tears by an iPhone.
 
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