puredrifting
Major Contributor
He's been sitting, staring at his computer hourly with his wallet in his mouth since CineGear. I'm surprised it took him this long to pre-order! ;-)
Panasonic S1H Announcement Tuesday, August 27th
- Thread starter TheDingo
- Start date
He's been sitting, staring at his computer hourly with his wallet in his mouth since CineGear. I'm surprised it took him this long to pre-order! ;-)
filmguy123
Veteran
gimme that 4k60p 10-bit internal with IBIS! I've been waiting hourly for that for 2+ years!
puredrifting
Major Contributor
But no RAW, internal NDs, Prores? Lenses ain't cheap, I was surprised at that 28-70 2.8. I have to find something to complain about.
No, seriously, it's a pretty impressive package for the money.
Cary Knoop
Veteran
And they ain't light either.
Perhaps an idea for B&H: give videographers a free one-year membership to 24-hour fitness if you buy a full-frame "handheld" camera with a zoom lens.
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filmguy123
Veteran
Yeah, this is one of the most impressive packages to launch in years. When our list of drawbacks is narrowed to:
- New Super Short flange distance quality mount that will adapt pretty much anything, with only Sigma/Leica/Panasonic native options at launch (good selection now, great selection within a year)
- Limited RAW (to be clear - in an article Panasonic confirmed they are working with Atomos for ProRes RAW over HDMI for the S1H - so, there is RAW similar to EVA1)
- No Internal ND (I happily use Xume adapters)
- Mediocre AF
We're doing preettttyyy good. Essentially, this is the camera I've been dreaming on for a few years.
- Internal 10-bit 4k60p, FHD 10-bit @ 120fps with full VFR options (lots of frame rates - menu shown in some videos)
- So many codecs they invented a filter option
- WFM, Dual Zebra, Shutter Angle
- C4K
- IBIS
- IBIS
- IBIS
- Weather Sealed
- Small, modular
- Dual ISO
- Full Vlog and Vgamut
- Short flange distance
Need I go on? With the XLR module, the only thing the EVA1 has on this, really, is internal ND. And the EVA1 is awesome. But the lowlight on the S1 blows it away, especially with Dual ISO. Especially since it will almost certainly have a quicker dual ISO switch like the GH5s which auto selects, unlike the EVA1. And the UI on this is lightyears better.
The 24-105 is the only native lens I need. F4.0 on Full Frame for video is pleennntty. That gives AF, Zoom, Dual IS. For everything else I've been happy with the Sigma MC-21 adapter and my Milvus, and I picked up the Voigtlander 35mm II f/1.2 for a more vintage/watercolored bokeh look that's been great. With the APC-S/FF switch mode, I can make it a 35/50 prime for faster stuff but still retain the art lens look.
Do I sound bashful? For MY needs, I don't think there's a better camera on the market, full stop. Even including an Alexa... I would pick this to work with for my type of work.
Happy camper.
- New Super Short flange distance quality mount that will adapt pretty much anything, with only Sigma/Leica/Panasonic native options at launch (good selection now, great selection within a year)
- Limited RAW (to be clear - in an article Panasonic confirmed they are working with Atomos for ProRes RAW over HDMI for the S1H - so, there is RAW similar to EVA1)
- No Internal ND (I happily use Xume adapters)
- Mediocre AF
We're doing preettttyyy good. Essentially, this is the camera I've been dreaming on for a few years.
- Internal 10-bit 4k60p, FHD 10-bit @ 120fps with full VFR options (lots of frame rates - menu shown in some videos)
- So many codecs they invented a filter option
- WFM, Dual Zebra, Shutter Angle
- C4K
- IBIS
- IBIS
- IBIS
- Weather Sealed
- Small, modular
- Dual ISO
- Full Vlog and Vgamut
- Short flange distance
Need I go on? With the XLR module, the only thing the EVA1 has on this, really, is internal ND. And the EVA1 is awesome. But the lowlight on the S1 blows it away, especially with Dual ISO. Especially since it will almost certainly have a quicker dual ISO switch like the GH5s which auto selects, unlike the EVA1. And the UI on this is lightyears better.
The 24-105 is the only native lens I need. F4.0 on Full Frame for video is pleennntty. That gives AF, Zoom, Dual IS. For everything else I've been happy with the Sigma MC-21 adapter and my Milvus, and I picked up the Voigtlander 35mm II f/1.2 for a more vintage/watercolored bokeh look that's been great. With the APC-S/FF switch mode, I can make it a 35/50 prime for faster stuff but still retain the art lens look.
Do I sound bashful? For MY needs, I don't think there's a better camera on the market, full stop. Even including an Alexa... I would pick this to work with for my type of work.
Happy camper.
I don't know ... the AF looks pretty good in the video by Richard Wong.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qRjKNLeQhPc
The Raw to the Atomos will differ from the EVA1 in that it will be limited to 4K due to HDMI spec limitations.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qRjKNLeQhPc
The Raw to the Atomos will differ from the EVA1 in that it will be limited to 4K due to HDMI spec limitations.
filmguy123
Veteran
Ah, sure. You are right. And, the RAW on the EVA1 can do a pretty brilliant 240fps output as well which will not be matched. 120 RAW output is nice, too. So - not apples to apples there. But for most use cases, in a handheld package, 6k H.265 10-bit internal with future 4K ProRes output (and 4K 60p 10-bit internal) is smokin'!
And according to Lok Cheung the current S1H firmware is 0.4B, so it still has a ways to go before it hits final firmware ready to ship.
And they ain't light either.
Perhaps an idea for B&H: give videographers a free one-year membership to 24-hour fitness if you buy a full-frame "handheld" camera with a zoom lens.
I've been on several 8 hour shoots while mostly going handheld with the S1 and 24-105mm, it's not that bad and I don't work out. When held to your face like a photographer it's pretty sweet with that amazing EVF.
filmguy123
Veteran
Perhaps an idea for B&H: give videographers a free one-year membership to 24-hour fitness if you buy a full-frame "handheld" camera with a zoom lens.
It's not bad at all, and I say this as having openly defended/petitioned lightweight shooting for years. The 24-105 is pretty light overall. With a lighter lens on there, like an adapted vintage lens or what have you, very light. When I add the Zeiss Milvus we're in 5lbs territory, which is getting up there, but due to the small size its pretty easy to take weight off with simple rig options.
Most of the time I shoot it full handheld and its great, no issue.
Now, I will say, after using it and popping over the GH5 for some stuff. WHOA. That GH5 is *so* light. Hence why I also see at least a great GH6 coming out - there really is something special about the really small size and lightweight. I hope they don't start increasing the M43 size/weight, I'd love to see them focus on keeping those feather weight.
BTW Panasonic just updated their PanaLeica 25mm 1.4 prime with a series II, and the 10-25 I think should be available any day now. They are still pushing glass.
And they will continue to do so.
Which is why they should have made, at least, portions of their promos on any of their existing lenses and any Sigma EF's with the adapter. Instead they went with a $8,000 Atlas anamorphic. Great idea if S1H is a gimbal cam on the set with the Varicams. Not a great idea if S1H is the sole cam in your hands.
Cary Knoop
Veteran
The kicker is though that they push the IBIS for anamorphic as a great feature.
I wanna see that videographer handling a full-frame anamorphic lens for a scene while focus pulling with his "spare" hand. :grin:
I wanna see that videographer handling a full-frame anamorphic lens for a scene while focus pulling with his "spare" hand. :grin:
Cary Knoop
Veteran
Has Panasonic said RAW will be limited to 4K? Atomos said earlier this year that they were testing higher than 4K RAW capture resolutions with the Z6 and Z7, so I wouldn't assume the S1H limited to 4K RAW until Panasonic confirms the limitation.
My understanding is that Atomos is using the HDMI port to send a nonstandard signal that wouldn't be limited to resolutions specified by HDMI. I believe the EVA1's 5.7K RAW recording is also nonstandard and Shogun Inferno has no problem recording that output. Hopefully Panasonic will be able to allow full resolution RAW recording on the S1H.
In any case the S1H looks amazing!
filmguy123
Veteran
They haven't said that, actually - so its possible it could be a higher res over raw i suppose. Not yet confirmed.
As for FF over S35 for video. Without going down all of the various reasons, I will say for ME it's not about shallow DOF. I don't shoot any shallower than I have for years on M43, actually. A couple nice things:
1. I can stop down for easier focusing in lowlight on the S1 since there's more headroom
2. A lot of lenses perform best stopped down a bit
3. It it easier to go wider with minimal distortion, if desired
4. I appreciate how the requirement to do a "sensor crop" for 4K60p doesn't bother me, cause, now I'm just right back at S35 framing anyhow.
5. You can run the S1 in APS-C mode the whole time, if you want
Mostly I don't really care if its full frame, S35, or m43. I'm looking for the best combo of small/light, IBIS, awesome lowlight, 4k60p, 14 stops DR, etc. There is no s35 or m43 camera on market that can match the unique combination of performance/features of the S1 - at any price point. I like the S1 for performance, irregardless of sensor size.
As for FF over S35 for video. Without going down all of the various reasons, I will say for ME it's not about shallow DOF. I don't shoot any shallower than I have for years on M43, actually. A couple nice things:
1. I can stop down for easier focusing in lowlight on the S1 since there's more headroom
2. A lot of lenses perform best stopped down a bit
3. It it easier to go wider with minimal distortion, if desired
4. I appreciate how the requirement to do a "sensor crop" for 4K60p doesn't bother me, cause, now I'm just right back at S35 framing anyhow.
5. You can run the S1 in APS-C mode the whole time, if you want
Mostly I don't really care if its full frame, S35, or m43. I'm looking for the best combo of small/light, IBIS, awesome lowlight, 4k60p, 14 stops DR, etc. There is no s35 or m43 camera on market that can match the unique combination of performance/features of the S1 - at any price point. I like the S1 for performance, irregardless of sensor size.
Samuel H
Major Contributor
Full frame has many advantages, but for a lot of people they are not important.
1. A bigger sensor allows for shallower DoF. If you don't want shallower DoF, you can close down your aperture and get exactly the same image.
2. A bigger sensor allows for cleaner images with less noise. But if you close down your aperture to keep DoF constant then you'll have to increase your ISO and this completely kills the noise advantage.
3. There's a lot of great cheap glass for full frame, including Canon L primes, Sigma Art primes, etc, but also Leica-R or Nikon AIS vintage primes.
4. A bigger sensor will give you a sharper image. Check this and this and this. If you're comparing the MTF results from the m43 Veydras to that of the FF Zeiss CP2 or Tokina Vista lenses, you have to compare the Veydra's 20 and 40 lp/mm lines with the FF 10 and 20 lp/mm lines. And, to keep DoF constant, you'd have to compare the Veydras at f/2 with the FF lenses at f/4 (that's the third link). It's not even close. They Veydras at f/2 have MTF of 0.5-0.8 at 40 lp/mm, compared with 0.8-0.9 for many FF cinema lenses at f/4 and 20 lp/mm. If you're using photography lenses, the results are very similar: here and here and here, and keep in mind those FF results are wide open.
If you don't want your DoF to get shallower, 1 and 2 basically disappear.
If you already have glass you like and it's S35 glass, then 3 also disappears. In my case, I have a very nice set of vintage Leica-R primes, which is a great reason for wanting a FF sensor. But in terms of modern glass I'm absolutely in love with the Sigma 16mm f/1.4 and 56mm f/1.4 APS-C lenses, which, for stills, have completely killed my lust for FF. If I can get something like an a6400 but with IBIS and shooting 14-bit RAW 4k 60fps video with awesome eye-detect AF, then I'm selling my Leica-R set. And I said IF but it's certainly WHEN, the future is coming, fast. Give it another three or four years, maybe.
So you're left with 4, and then you find yourself trying to diffuse and soften the image to make it pleasing because our sensors have way too much resolution...
1. A bigger sensor allows for shallower DoF. If you don't want shallower DoF, you can close down your aperture and get exactly the same image.
2. A bigger sensor allows for cleaner images with less noise. But if you close down your aperture to keep DoF constant then you'll have to increase your ISO and this completely kills the noise advantage.
3. There's a lot of great cheap glass for full frame, including Canon L primes, Sigma Art primes, etc, but also Leica-R or Nikon AIS vintage primes.
4. A bigger sensor will give you a sharper image. Check this and this and this. If you're comparing the MTF results from the m43 Veydras to that of the FF Zeiss CP2 or Tokina Vista lenses, you have to compare the Veydra's 20 and 40 lp/mm lines with the FF 10 and 20 lp/mm lines. And, to keep DoF constant, you'd have to compare the Veydras at f/2 with the FF lenses at f/4 (that's the third link). It's not even close. They Veydras at f/2 have MTF of 0.5-0.8 at 40 lp/mm, compared with 0.8-0.9 for many FF cinema lenses at f/4 and 20 lp/mm. If you're using photography lenses, the results are very similar: here and here and here, and keep in mind those FF results are wide open.
If you don't want your DoF to get shallower, 1 and 2 basically disappear.
If you already have glass you like and it's S35 glass, then 3 also disappears. In my case, I have a very nice set of vintage Leica-R primes, which is a great reason for wanting a FF sensor. But in terms of modern glass I'm absolutely in love with the Sigma 16mm f/1.4 and 56mm f/1.4 APS-C lenses, which, for stills, have completely killed my lust for FF. If I can get something like an a6400 but with IBIS and shooting 14-bit RAW 4k 60fps video with awesome eye-detect AF, then I'm selling my Leica-R set. And I said IF but it's certainly WHEN, the future is coming, fast. Give it another three or four years, maybe.
So you're left with 4, and then you find yourself trying to diffuse and soften the image to make it pleasing because our sensors have way too much resolution...
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