Panasonic S1H Announcement Tuesday, August 27th

Panasonic has been pretty vocal about remaining committed to the m43 platform. I suppose it could be a marketing line, but most companies who do this aren't quite as enthusiastically vocal.

I don't know if anyone was expecting a GHx update before 2020 anyway, that would be out of character.
 
filmguy123 said:
Panasonic has been pretty vocal about remaining committed to the m43 platform. I suppose it could be a marketing line, but most companies who do this aren't quite as enthusiastically vocal...
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Unlike Tony Northrup, I don't think they'll discontinue the GH line or MFT. But, what once was their high end will be entry level from now on.

But entry level will be of "pro" quality of recent vintage.

soarprod said:
Rumored price is $4K for the S1H, new 24-70 2.8 TBA at $2,200.
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They said it was going to be "under" $4,000 ... and it will be by a buck.
 
Cary Knoop said:
Panasonic "forgot" to put IBIS in the GH5s.

There is no market for a portable camera over $2000 that does not have IBIS.
And if you do not need portability then for $1300 you can obtain a Blackmagic Pocket 4K with better color science than the crap V-Log-L they put in the GH5 and GH5s.

I am worried that next Panasonic is going to "forget" about MFT or provide a crippled GH6 in the illusion that mobile videographers will rush into a full-frame solution.
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I met with the GH5S design team before it's rollout, they didn't forget to put IBIS into the GH5, it was a conscious decision made because of various technical limitations that clashed
with other design goals of the camera at the time. The GH5 is aimed at hybrid prosumers while the GH5S was aimed more at video professionals. As of today, IBIS is a consumer feature
and Panasonic had different goals for the GH5S. They were well aware that customers would complain, but I don't think they anticipated the backlash of people who HATE the GH5S, simply
because it omits IBIS. It would be interesting to know the sales numbers of GH5 versus GH5S even though the 5S has some really cool video features.

If you look at industry-wide trends, M43 is dying faster than S35 and it's easy to see that S35 is dying too as far as new camera intros.
It's as if the collective Zeitgeist has decided than anything short of FF of some sort is worthless. I find that assertion ludicrous but evidently the average buyer disagrees,
the market as a whole, has fallen for the FF parlor trick, you could see the writing on the wall at CineGear 2018 and then this year at CineGear solidified that even more.

I predict in the not so distant future, no pro or prosumer digital cinema cameras will be made without at least a FF sensor and it's possible it may even slip to medium format after that, at least on bodies that have the room for that physically.
The giant sensor trend is somewhat dumb, we can complain and lament but you can't fight what the majority of buyers have been brainwashed into thinking is desirable foir the foreseeable future, that is FF 6K or 8K cameras. To me FF, is simply
a new way to sell new cameras to an audience that realistically doesn't need to buy a new camera and lenses. If most pros already have a 4K capable RAW and or Log capable camera, how many of us need to "trade up" in the real world?

We're in an industry with the lot of followers and most seem content to let the manufacturers dictate what they should want, need and buy.
 
DLD said:
Unlike Tony Northrup, I don't think they'll discontinue the GH line or MFT. But, what once was their high end will be entry level from now on.

But entry level will be of "pro" quality of recent vintage.



They said it was going to be "under" $4,000 ... and it will be by a buck.
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I think there will be a GH6. But after that...that is the question I am sure that will be answered by S1 and S1H sales. If 80% of my GH5/S market moved to the FF S1/H, would I keep on developing and introducing new M43 cameras ad infinitum? It would all depend on sales I would think. But looking at the trends for the whole industry, M43 is fading. S35 is fading. FF is exploding.
 
puredrifting said:
... If you look at industry-wide trends, M43 is dying faster than S35 and it's easy to see that S35 is dying too as far as new camera intros. It's as if the collective Zeitgeist has decided than anything short of FF of some sort is worthless. I find that assertion ludicrous but evidently the average buyer disagrees, the market as a whole, has fallen for the FF parlor trick, you could see the writing on the wall at CineGear 2018 and then this year at CineGear solidified that even more.
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It is a collective Zeitgeist plain and simple. Camera divisions have no where else to go but up. Since MFT and S35 are likely played out for next-gen features and revenue, VistaVision is the natural next step to keep cash coming in. Everyone wants to be cool, so we all follow the program. At least I do. I want to be cool. Which FF camera will make me the coolest?
 
puredrifting said:
It would be interesting to know the sales numbers of GH5 versus GH5S
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I wouldn't consider the GH5, but I did consider the GH5s at some point. But that's me. The GH5 is well ahead of the GH5s in the best-seller lists from both amazon and bhphoto.

Regarding sensor size...

Adding resolution as technology evolves is cheap. That's why they don't sell 1080p TVs anymore: almost everything is 4k nowadays because making 1080p panels is not significantly cheaper.
But making bigger sensors is always going to be more expensive. The difference will become smaller, but it will be there. And in glass the cost difference will be just as big as it is today: bigger sensors require bigger lenses that are more expensive to manufacture.

What I can see happening is that, as smaller sensors become better and better, the demand for sensor sizes such as 1" and m43 may fall: why pay $$$ for a m43 camera if your phone has a 40 Mpix 2/3" sensor that shoots nice video too. That is: m43 will be eaten from below, not from above.

For me, the sweet spot is APS-C, because it's big enough for shallow DoF and because there are very nice lenses for that sensor size (specifically Sigma 16mm f/1.4 and 56mm f/1.4) that are much smaller and cheaper than FF glass of similar quality.
 
Samuel H said:
What I can see happening is that, as smaller sensors become better and better, the demand for sensor sizes such as 1" and m43 may fall: why pay $$$ for a m43 camera if your phone has a 40 Mpix 2/3" sensor that shoots nice video too. That is: m43 will be eaten from below, not from above.
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That’s a good point.

M43 does have more natural control over dof than 2/3”. Which kind of matters.


Samuel H said:
For me, the sweet spot is APS-C, because it's big enough for shallow DoF and because there are very nice lenses for that sensor size (specifically Sigma 16mm f/1.4 and 56mm f/1.4) that are much smaller and cheaper than FF glass of similar quality.
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Agreed. Especially since mirrorless design opens up lens design limitations that used to exist. May end up negating the need for m43.

Will be interesting to see what happens with compact zooms and ultra wide angles for the s35 mirrorless segment.
 
Paul F said:
I want to be cool. Which FF camera will make me the coolest?
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As my boi Steve Yedlin says:
48629217751_8561b90641_z.jpg
 
I guess a lot of this FF issue also falls into tiers:

1. Low end prosumer - mirrorless A7, XT-3, GH5, BMD PCC, Z Cam E2
2. Mid level working low end DP - S1H, FS5 MKII, FS7 MKII, C300MKII, C200, EVA 1, Kinefinity (sort of, at least based upon specs?), Z Cam new 6K and 8K models (sort of, based upon specs), Varicam LT
3. Higher and high end - All RED other than Komodo, Venice, F55, All Arri, Varicam 35, Millenium DXL

Tier 1 is right now almost all M43 and S35 but more seem to be migrating to larger sensor (BMD PCC 6K for instance?) A7s are an outlier in that they are FF but still relatively cheap

Tier 2 is currently mostly S35 but there are new outliers like the S1H that are FF and I think could sort of be classified at the bottom of the mid level? The question is, is the mid level tier disappearing as Tier 1 gets better and more feature packed
for less money and more higher end productions are just renting tier 3 cameras? Are a decent amount of pros still willing to buy cameras that cost between $7K and say, $12k?

Tier 3 is undoubtedly all about FF, period. Those outliers that are S35 like the older Arris will continue to fade, replaced by the new FF stuff. RED focus is all on FF even though
they still sell S35 models to the poor riff raff who can't afford a Monstro/Helium/whatever cute name they are calling FF this week.

There are new cameras coming down the pike, I am under NDA and can't give any specifics but they are FF. The trend for the foreseeable future is cramming a FF sensor into anything
that can phsyically accomodate one and the price levels will go down. We'll see lots of new tier one cameras with FF in the next couple of years because...trends.
 
puredrifting said:
Tier 3 is undoubtedly all about FF, period. Those outliers that are S35 like the older Arris will continue to fade, replaced by the new FF stuff. RED focus is all on FF even though
they still sell S35 models to the poor riff raff who can't afford a Monstro/Helium/whatever cute name they are calling FF this week.

There are new cameras coming down the pike, I am under NDA and can't give any specifics but they are FF. The trend for the foreseeable future is cramming a FF sensor into anything
that can phsyically accomodate one and the price levels will go down. We'll see lots of new tier one cameras with FF in the next couple of years because...trends.
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Arri is making an s35 4K camera.

The Red Helium is s35
 
I’m betting we’ll hear more news from RED about Komodo very soon. They have a habit of drawing attention from competitors and it’s been quiet over there...

This s1h announcement might do it. I’m curious about both cameras for different reasons (s1h could finally replace my 1DC).
 
You still have the 1DC?! That is awesome! I miss mine sometimes.

FF35 takes care of resolution lovers, and with a s35 crop mode, also keeps the 2K camp included. Two for one.
 
puredrifting said:
M43 is fading. S35 is fading. FF is exploding.
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With MFT Panasonic and Olympus pretty much had the market to themselves. With FF cameras we have four major players all going after the same pie, so it's going to be a battle for market share for the next 3-5 years.
 
Size and price is the only thing keeping the M4/3rds in the game. I like the size of the GH5 and its lenses but for other things, I would not cry if the GH6 was FF for the same $2,000 price tag. But, if every cameras has to cost over $3,000 because it is FF then that is stupid. So they better be prepared to sell FF cameras closer to $2,000 than $3,000 if they want as many buyers as the current "smaller" sensor options.

FF is big in the still world and more useful imho. In video, I don't know. Hand held gimbals are a great tool for an independent shooter and FF cameras and lenses are not exactly light. We will see but I am with Dingo, the GH6 should be a swing for the fences which would make it an awesome camera.
 
James0b57 said:
You still have the 1DC?! That is awesome! I miss mine sometimes.

FF35 takes care of resolution lovers, and with a s35 crop mode, also keeps the 2K camp included. Two for one.
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I do! I shoot stills for work as much as video, so both the 1DC and X-T3 are perfect for me, and I have to say besides some bells and whistles like peaking and an articulating screen (both solved with an external monitor), the 1DC is still very competitive. The image quality is still up there with the best mirrorless cameras.
 
For feature work, or anything narrative for that matter FF still presents one fundamental problem and that's one of focus...the cost of shooting at FF level DOF, is simply not practical and the artistic choice to use shallow DOF to emphasize certain scenes dissapears when everything is razor thin. That leaves FF with the low light advantage, but again, no one would shoot a film with a budget without lights...so, with documentary work I could see the value, though it would definitely not be my personal choice, but the multi billion $ market that is narrative will stay with S35 ideally at around 4.0 to 5.6 as someone is responsible for "getting the shot"! As drifting correctly points out, the FF desire is aimed squarely at the prosumer...FF is not practical when you have an expensive crew and actors waiting around while the camera department is trying to get a shot in focus, and it is lighting that creates beautiful footage, not the ability to shoot in the dark. So lastly, to that overused lament "but I just love the look of FF"....if you make your living shooting 20 second clips that you get payed a fortune for (does anybody?) this seems to be purely the sentiment of someone owning a camera as a hobby, and not to make a living with! (All run and gun, documentary shooter or photographers excluded here of course!)
 
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