Panasonic Removable Lens Four Thirds HD AVCHD Camera

DavidNJ said:
things we look for on a video camera (zebra, color matching adjustments, knee control, black stretch, headphone jack with output control, etc.) that aren't there.
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All excellent choices for features to leave out of this camera and charge a premium for in the "pro" video line. There is, though, an AV jack on the camera next to the HDMI port, it's possible that some third party adapter could be hooked up to it to provide Audio monitoring with level control--- if this AV output is active while shooting.

I'm just hoping that this camera will be successful enough that in 2 years when its obsolete the replacement will be in the mFT system, so that I can preserve much of my investment by buying a replacement camera body for around $600.

To that end, maybe the real question is which platform has the best chance of succes-- this one, the Samsung NX or maybe a new one from Nikon or Canon.

I think whatever it is, it will be EVIL, but maybe that's my prejudice for portability showing thru.
 
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It's funny that this little camera has generated far more interest than Panny's new HDC consumer 3 MOS HDC cameras. If that translates into sales figures, I'm sure they'll get the hint that customers want bigger chips for better DOF control.

Canon will probably announce a new Rebel with video in late spring or summer, so I would hold your horses on buying lenses since the the G1 HD won't be out until June anyways.

This would just a personal use camera for me, as previously mentioned, lack of zebras, HD SDI, TC and image controls would be a no no for professional uses.
 
I think it is mere hype. Have a glance on this Emanuel's post:

Emanuel said:
It does seem there are some mistakes and half trues which should be enlightened in behalf of the facts.

The point is: when using (in the 5D Mark II's movie mode) every pixel on every third row -- AFAIK it ain't skipping every 2nd pixel (horizontal and vertical) but sampling only one out of 3 pixels (horizontal not vertical), the resolution drops to 1/3rd. Being the full resolution (sensor) in movie mode (before downsizing to 1920x1080) 5.9MP instead.

More info here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nyquist–Shannon_sampling_theorem

But the sensor size for DOF is still the FF35mm (36x24 mm). Therefore, the noticeable problems with aliasing or moiré pattern -- avoidable with filters during shooting or even decreasing sharpness, not so easy in post production though.

The differences ain't only reported to DOF. Here is something where you can easily understand the tech limitations of an acquisition device in any way other than as 35mm sensor size. Even though you have no noise reduction on high ISO going with the 5D Mark II in movie mode. Anyway, do not try above ISO 1600 (example below) or so. Or you shall not have a good surprise at all.

1231359766.jpg


1231359089.jpg


Courtesy by By John Mahoney

On the other hand, here is another example which can help to figure out what does mean an interlaced encoding for progressive recording:

hf11hummerpa2.jpg


Interlaced encoding can be a problem for the progressive modes, as it is possible to follow with the article brought by Adam Wilt:

http://provideocoalition.com/index.php/awilt/story/review_canon_vixia_hf11_avchd_camcorder/P1/
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Is that interlaced coding a good thing? I don't think you want it.
 
dadoboy said:
Canon will probably announce a new Rebel with video in late spring or summer, so I would hold your horses on buying lenses since the the G1 HD won't be out until June anyways.

This would just a personal use camera for me, as previously mentioned, lack of zebras, HD SDI, TC and image controls would be a no no for professional uses.
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That's why I'm still gonna wait until late summer at the earliest to pull the trigger on a VDSLR purchase. I just rented Transporter 3 on Blu-ray last night. On the disc was the Crank 2 trailer, which is all XH-A1 and HG10 footage. It looked freaking excellent. I'm feeling much better about my decision to hang on to my A1 and seeing how this VDSLR stuff and the Scarlet develops over the next 4-6 months.
 
The trouble with the A1 is the only way to get good video off it is to capture the component output. The camera and lens are much better than HDV.

I don't know where Canon will end up. A Rebel doesn't make me shake in my boots. However, Sony (Konica/Minolta) is do for a new camera and they are the ones racing Panasonic in the pro-video market. They are looking for a came changer...and we know Canon is scrambling with the 5DM2.

However, the Canon SX1 and SX200 share the 5DM2's high bandwidth recording (1080p30 at 40-45Mb/s for the SX1, 720p30 at 25Mb/s for the SX200). For $600 and $350 list respectively, either will probably best your A1.
 
DavidNJ said:
However, the Canon SX1 and SX200 share the 5DM2's high bandwidth recording (1080p30 at 40-45Mb/s for the SX1, 720p30 at 25Mb/s for the SX200). For $600 and $350 list respectively, either will probably best your A1.
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You may be right, and I know that HDV is getting a little long in the tooth. The thing is will they have the other things like full manual control, zebras, custom picture settings, XLR audio, and a more filmmaker and videographer friendly design?

All I'm saying is that the way things are starting to develop, I don't want to constantly be spending the money on a new camera over the next 6 months to keep up with this sudden VDSLR growth spurt. I want to see how some of these cameras compare to each other and see what the pros and cons are between each model.

For the web, Blu-ray, and DVD distributions of short film projects, I'll be fine to just wait and see how things pan out over the summer.

I am excited by this new movement with camera technology, and want to eventually move to an interchangeable lens system with a larger sensor for excellent low light ability and DoF control.

Its going to be an interesting summer for sure.
 
The D90 was interesting, the 5DM2 is shattering. So people forgo some of the other features to use it. There is nothing preventing anyone from making a professional video camera based on hybrid large sensor internals. However, Panasonic is just getting the HPX300 out the door, and Sony has the EX1/3 established.

Will they eat their young? NAB is next month.
 
Nektonic-

Well, you can wait for 6-9 months and see what shakes out. I think that this will be the chance for every manufacturer whose serious about filmmaking at this level, to announce a camera to compete with the GH1. I think their choices will tell us a lot about the future.

I think Samsung will really be telling us a lot with their first camera (which is supposed to have video). I think Nikon and Canon will continue to have video be a sideshow to the main purpose for their cameras. And I think every camcorder manufacturer who has a separate 35mm lens line should come out with a camcorder with a large sensor that takes their 35mm lenses, or they are going to signal that they are asleep at the wheel.

Based on how all that shakes out, you can pick a lens system that you like. Don't worry about the cameras-- figure out the lens system that is best, and then every two years you change the camera body but you keep your investment in lenses.

I think that's the real paradigm shift that the GH1 brings to the table. They are doing it with an adeuqate lens system, but not one with any longetivity, but at the same time, them and the Samsung NX will be able to use any 35mm glass out there with an adapter (and manual focusing.)

So, if you don't need a camera now, wait 6-9 months and it will probably be evident which lenses you should start buying.
 
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DavidNJ said:
However, the Canon SX1 and SX200 share the 5DM2's high bandwidth recording (1080p30 at 40-45Mb/s for the SX1, 720p30 at 25Mb/s for the SX200).
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This is not accurate. The Canon SX1 has half of 5D Mark II bitrate: 17Mbps.

With no mention of its lower rez (10MP) and smaller sensor size (1/2.3"). It is a compact, actually. A different bird.

DavidNJ said:
Hopefully the GH-1 (with HDMI output and manual controls) will let us equal or exceed the 5DM2. However, two years from now it will also be obsolete.
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A smaller sensor can only try to close a larger one when DOF or sensitivity or even latitude are not playing. Even though, it is precisely here, through latitude (aside pixel density*) where it is possible put a mask on at least a little bit.

A 35mm setup of top lenses shall bring a value add-on, difficult to match. An adaptor will just magnify 1.5x, 2x whatever, what a large sensor is ready to offer @wide end by itself.


* PS -- I mean, on the edge of a balanced pixel density which IMO and many others it has no room for significant expansion in any way other than as additional losses instead, particularly in terms of lowlight range. Therefore, a good timing for a digital acquisition device purchase. Further improvements will be minimal as far as pixel density concerns. Unless towards larger sensors which does seem to be the option of the eldest Canon or a new player such as RED or now Panasonic that has just followed the criteria.

http://www.sphoto.com/techinfo/dslrsensors/dslrsensors.htm


EDIT -- That 17Mbps bitrate is not correct but it has been updated by David's info already added. I obviously stand the remaining.
 
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LizaWitz said:
Based on how all that shakes out, you can pick a lens system that you like. Don't worry about the cameras-- figure out the lens system that is best, and then every two years you change the camera body but you keep your investment in lenses.
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This is pretty much how I'm approaching things. At the moment your body choices are between the Canon 5DII and the GH1. Keeping your lenses and updating the body (brain) would be ideal in the next couple years...
 
I went nikon lens. That's why I'll sell my d90 and go gh1. Eventually I'll sell the gh1 or keep it then go onto something better, but the gh1 will probably suffice for a while. It's price range is going to be hard to beat. I bet the success of the gh1 will only bring a gh2 and have a bigger sensor and better features overall at the same price point the gh1 is now.
 
First, the SX1 has the same output rate as the 5DM2, go look at a file. The detail shows it also.

Second...sensor size is only one factor. A small sensor can have the same latitude as a large sensor...a Fuji EXP sensor probably has more latitude then either camera. (it is a little Genesis like in its processing).

While there is a DOF difference, in practice with video it won't be that earth shattering. If you really want a lot of bokeh, yes. However, with video, that short a DOF can be a problem also.

The micro 4/3rds, or as Lisa likes to say mFT has wide adaptability to lenses because of the rangefinder like short distance to the sensor; a result of no mirror assembly. There are already Canon and I believe Nikon mFT adapters. And of course 4/3rds and Leica M adapters.

The real issue with pixel density is the lens resolution. A look at Canon's lens specs shows MTF curves for 10lp/mm and 30lp/mm. Panasonic publishes a 20lp/mm and not directly comparable 40lp/mm (60lp/mm would be comparable). The Canon's sensors have about 78 lp/mm, the GH-1 closer to 125lp/mm. A compact camera with a 12Mp sensor can have over 400lp/mm. A 1/3" 1080p sensor has about 200lp/mm.
 
DavidNJ said:
First, the SX1 has the same output rate as the 5DM2, go look at a file. The detail shows it also.
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It does seem it's my turn now to ask you for your information source? Google it and it is a mess. I had checked it out straight after its announcement and, as matter of fact, it had been announced with 17Mbps as bitrate. Now, both informations concur. Yours?

DavidNJ said:
Second...sensor size is only one factor. A small sensor can have the same latitude as a large sensor...a Fuji EXP sensor probably has more latitude then either camera. (it is a little Genesis like in its processing).
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Right. Please, give a 2nd chance for a 2nd read over my quote:

«Even though, it is precisely here, through latitude (...) where it is possible put a mask on at least a little bit.»

The latitude factor will apply only when and if associated to other variables.

DavidNJ said:
While there is a DOF difference, in practice with video it won't be that earth shattering. If you really want a lot of bokeh, yes. However, with video, that short a DOF can be a problem also.
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http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=163339&page=20

It does really shatter, believe me. :-)

DavidNJ said:
The micro 4/3rds, or as Lisa likes to say mFT has wide adaptability to lenses because of the rangefinder like short distance to the sensor; a result of no mirror assembly. There are already Canon and I believe Nikon mFT adapters. And of course 4/3rds and Leica M adapters.

The real issue with pixel density is the lens resolution. A look at Canon's lens specs shows MTF curves for 10lp/mm and 30lp/mm. Panasonic publishes a 20lp/mm and not directly comparable 40lp/mm (60lp/mm would be comparable). The Canon's sensors have about 78 lp/mm, the GH-1 closer to 125lp/mm. A compact camera with a 12Mp sensor can have over 400lp/mm. A 1/3" 1080p sensor has about 200lp/mm.
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Well-seen. But you're actually mentioning the point. You need glass surface in order to resolve the resolution. Otherwise, you'll have less space for handling the task in the same purpose. But you'll never have the same bokeh. When I began my career in 1990, I gave up the video towards the film stock 'cause of that.

On the adapter solution, the interface just magnifies it, it is always a poor solution. Effective but good bye wide end. With L lenses, for instance, or similar glass, sure. The Leica f/4 offer is too slow for a serious approach to certain kind of outcome (once again, it's f/4 not in the 35mm format).

But with confirmation concerning the bitrate, I'd rather think to buy a SX1 40Mbps instead. At least, as family cam. :laugh:
 
Focal Reducer?
Just thinking, with the unobstructed throat of the m4/3, would it be possible to engineer a focal length reduser? Obviously you couldn't do this with a true SLR, since the glass would obstruct the mirror.
I do know such devices are available for telescopes, and it would solve a load of problems with using other marque's lenses on the m4/3 system.
Anyone with real optical knowlage / experiance care to comment?
Dave
 
daveswan said:
Focal Reducer?
Just thinking, with the unobstructed throat of the m4/3, would it be possible to engineer a focal length reduser? Obviously you couldn't do this with a true SLR, since the glass would obstruct the mirror.
I do know such devices are available for telescopes, and it would solve a load of problems with using other marque's lenses on the m4/3 system.
Anyone with real optical knowlage / experiance care to comment?
Dave
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Interesting point. With 35mm glass, you could move significantly closer to the glass, sort of the opposite of a tele-converter. Maybe as much as half the distance, restoring the glass to its original 35mm equivalent. However, the adapter may make that difficult.

Emmanuel, I noticed you referenced the CameraLabs review. That review has actual footage on vimeo that you can download and this quote, emphasis mine:

The files themselves additionally consume memory at a rate of knots (well, at around 5 Megabytes per second anyway), and once you get them onto your computer you may experience issues with smooth playback and editing. The simple fact is HD video encoded using H.264 at high bit rates presents a challenge for even the latest computers, and there’s few editing tools available that don’t involve significant delays or an intermediate conversion stage – we have dedicated threads about H.264 editing solutions and the PowerShot SX1 IS itself in the Cameralabs forums which contain a number of suggestions
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The Canon USA site says:

Time of Recordable Movies Full HD 1,920 x 1,080 30 fps Movie size (KB/sec.) 5,296 2GB 6 min. 07 sec. 8GB 24 min. 30 sec.

Both the number, 5.3Mb/s, and the storage requirements are 40+Mb/s.

The defense rests. In a typical tv show/movie, this is where everyone in the gallery stands up and cheers. :)
 
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Hey guys, I am sorry but 22 pages is a lot and I have one simple question that I am sure was already asked here. Are there Nikon and Canon adapters like the one for OM lenses?
 
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